| Time |
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Message |
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| 00:20 |
jeff_ |
also, WWW::Mechanize++ |
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| 09:50 |
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| 09:50 |
rfrasur |
News of the Day: Carnation Instant Breakfast does NOT taste as good as eggs and toast. |
| 09:52 |
mrpeters |
oatmeal with strawberries > eggs |
| 09:53 |
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| 09:54 |
rfrasur |
hmm....dehydrated strawberries or fresh? w/ milk in it? instant or real oatmeal? sugar or no? |
| 09:55 |
mrpeters |
fresh, milk |
| 09:55 |
mrpeters |
quaker strawberries and cream |
| 09:55 |
paxed |
... "Instant" "Breakfast"? is that like those "meal-in-a-pill" that we we supposed to have, accourding to the 60s predictions? |
| 09:56 |
rfrasur |
paxed: it's powder you add to milk....it was what was available this morning according to schedule. |
| 09:56 |
rfrasur |
and made by Nestle...which always reminds me of the melamine that was found in Chinese baby formula. |
| 09:56 |
* rfrasur |
likes to live on the edge. |
| 09:57 |
* rfrasur |
scoffs at corporate irresponsibility. |
| 09:57 |
paxed |
texas should execute couple, i'm sure the rest would fall in line ... |
| 09:58 |
rfrasur |
lol, TX isn't the only state with capital punishment. They just get the most air time for some reason (probably because it's more prolific there?) |
| 09:59 |
senator |
they do apply it at an exceptional rate. no other state comes close. |
| 10:00 |
rfrasur |
I laugh, not because I think it's funny, but because the whole thing (the WHOLE thing) is to the point where it's a laugh or cry proposition. |
| 10:00 |
|
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| 10:01 |
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| 10:01 |
rfrasur |
senator: true true |
| 10:02 |
* Dyrcona |
will believe that corporations are people when Texas executes one. |
| 10:02 |
rfrasur |
Dyrcona++ # but not the people that make up the corporation |
| 10:03 |
Dyrcona |
That is as political as I want to get in here when the politics does not apply to software. |
| 10:03 |
pinesol_green |
[evergreen|Dan Wells] Capture and log AuthProxy logins with no account - <http://git.evergreen-ils.org/?p=Evergreen.git;a=commit;h=be36c3c> |
| 10:03 |
pinesol_green |
[evergreen|Michael Peters] Initial selfcheck styling enhancements - <http://git.evergreen-ils.org/?p=Evergreen.git;a=commit;h=b137ced> |
| 10:04 |
|
kayals joined #evergreen |
| 10:04 |
rfrasur |
Nope, software as a tool is apolitical. |
| 10:05 |
Dyrcona |
rfrausr: That's what you think...... |
| 10:05 |
* bshum |
crosses fingers for git plugin, but doesn't hold too much hope yet. |
| 10:05 |
Dyrcona |
;) |
| 10:05 |
rfrasur |
Dyrcona: The actual software is - because it's not human. The people creating it, however, are always...and the entities. |
| 10:06 |
rfrasur |
ONLY the actual software is. Although it may be a reflection of the creator...which isn't its fault or choice. |
| 10:06 |
Dyrcona |
rfrasur: I disagree because tools are made by humans for a purpose, and therefore political. |
| 10:07 |
rfrasur |
I don't think a thing is anything until it's implemented. Well, it's whatever it's made of...but until it's doing something, it has no moral implications. |
| 10:07 |
rfrasur |
(I think my brain just broke) |
| 10:08 |
Dyrcona |
Despite the disclaimer of "fitness for a specific purpose" everything is made with "fitness for a specific purpose" in mind. |
| 10:08 |
rfrasur |
true - it is. But it means nothing until that purpose is realized...or the realization begins at least. |
| 10:09 |
pinesol_green |
[evergreen|Pasi Kallinen] Fix untranslatable strings in the selfcheck interface. - <http://git.evergreen-ils.org/?p=Evergreen.git;a=commit;h=153a840> |
| 10:09 |
bshum |
So maybe it was the merge commit throwing things off for the plugin. |
| 10:10 |
bshum |
That's annoying. |
| 10:10 |
rfrasur |
(eggs still taste better than instant breakfast) |
| 10:11 |
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| 10:17 |
bshum |
berick: I didn't get to mention this yesterday, but the following is a list of 10 bugs that have been marked specifically for backport consideration to series 2.3: http://ur1.ca/eogyo |
| 10:17 |
bshum |
Of those, I'm still figuring out which we ought to really backport, the KPAC translation one has me iffy. |
| 10:18 |
rfrasur |
Dyrcona: update - our copy of "This Film is Not Yet Rated" came in. It's got a big black circle. |
| 10:19 |
paxed |
bshum: my opinion is: don't bother backporting pure translation ones. |
| 10:19 |
Dyrcona |
The one I checked out had a black rectangle. |
| 10:19 |
* Dyrcona |
finds it amusing that a film about censorship has its cover censored. |
| 10:20 |
berick |
bshum: thanks, looking |
| 10:20 |
* Dyrcona |
cringed slightly when he was the merge commit yesterday. |
| 10:20 |
Dyrcona |
s/was/saw/ |
| 10:20 |
Dyrcona |
Must be using a mirror to type.... |
| 10:21 |
rfrasur |
"Don't just commit...BE the commit" |
| 10:21 |
paxed |
bshum: too many untranslatable strings all over the place, it's just not worth it. if someone wants more of eg translated they can update. and those who use it in non-english already have been doing so for a while, so wouldn't really notice anyway. |
| 10:21 |
rfrasur |
developer zen |
| 10:21 |
Dyrcona |
We use git because all code must be committed. |
| 10:22 |
* rfrasur |
chuckles |
| 10:22 |
* paxed |
just likes the pulling and pushing. |
| 10:24 |
mrpeters |
hey cool, i got some code committed, thanks paxed |
| 10:24 |
mrpeters |
and bshum |
| 10:24 |
bshum |
Since we're not doing another 2.2 outside of security releases, going to handle all the remaining 2.2 targeted bugs. |
| 10:24 |
paxed |
i found the selfcheck ugly when i looked through it :P |
| 10:24 |
mrpeters |
wishes i still had time to work on stuff :( |
| 10:25 |
mrpeters |
speaking of....im not doing my job as bug wrangler....i probably need to resign from that post for a while |
| 10:25 |
mrpeters |
who is the chief now? |
| 10:26 |
bshum |
I sort of took defacto chief without the title. |
| 10:26 |
mrpeters |
ill let u make hte call on if u want me to still have the permissions or not |
| 10:26 |
bshum |
I don't consider it a post you hold, you can keep wrangling when you have time or not mrpeters, I don't mind. |
| 10:26 |
mrpeters |
i just honestly dont have time to participate regularly |
| 10:26 |
mrpeters |
ok |
| 10:27 |
mrpeters |
im down with that |
| 10:27 |
berick |
bshum: those all look sane to me for 2.3. note the kpac branch, though, points to a branch which appears to have been deleted |
| 10:27 |
bshum |
berick: Figures. Given what paxed said anyways, we can probably just skip that one then. |
| 10:36 |
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| 10:40 |
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| 10:41 |
berick |
i have a proposal for merge back-porting.. if the fix merges cleanly and it works fine in later versions and it's reasonable to assume the patch won't cause problems, just back-port it, pretty plz. |
| 10:41 |
berick |
e.g. the kpac patch which did "foo" -> l("foo") is obviously fine if it merges cleanly |
| 10:43 |
senator |
+1 bugs that only emerge in backports have not been an issue that we've had, as far as i'm aware |
| 10:45 |
phasefx |
+1 |
| 10:52 |
eeevil |
POLL TIME! (related to berick's plea above) |
| 10:53 |
Dyrcona |
It doesn't affect me, so I should abstain. |
| 10:54 |
senator |
well, as a committer you might be dealing with a bugfix that's appropriate for backport, even though your site doesn't run the numbered releases |
| 10:55 |
senator |
right? |
| 10:55 |
eeevil |
if a patch is in use in production and "does what it says on the tin", what is the opinion of allowing that to stand in for signoff by a human? I'm looking for opportunities to get working fixes out to more users, especially for widespread (but "annoying" rather than "crippling") issues |
| 10:56 |
eeevil |
Dyrcona: I hadn't asked my poll question ;) (but, on berick's point I'm +1 as well. please backport bug fixes) |
| 10:57 |
Dyrcona |
Oh. |
| 10:57 |
eeevil |
sorry for confusing things ... I didn't me "on berick's point" when I said related, but that's certainly what it looked like ... my bad |
| 10:57 |
rfrasur |
Is this a one question poll? |
| 10:58 |
eeevil |
rfrasur: heh... I'll restate because I'm being extra unclear today :) |
| 10:58 |
eeevil |
opinions sought: if a patch is in use in production and "does what it says on the tin", what is the opinion of allowing that to stand in for sign-off by a human? |
| 10:58 |
paxed |
another reason not to bother with that particular kpac translation: bug 1095280 |
| 10:58 |
pinesol_green |
Launchpad bug 1095280 in Evergreen "Build process doesn't get all translatable strings from templates" (affected: 1, heat: 6) [Undecided,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1095280 |
| 10:59 |
* paxed |
plays the devil's advocate |
| 10:59 |
Dyrcona |
For fixes: +1 |
| 11:00 |
eeevil |
Dyrcona: and, another wrinkle (though, if "in production" is enough, I don't personally see it as an issue) ... if the eventual committer is also the author? |
| 11:00 |
Dyrcona |
eeevil: I don't have a problem with that for bug fixes. |
| 11:01 |
eeevil |
I want to find the balance between the agreed-upon "more eyes required" community process and the fact that, sometimes, there's just not enough hours in the day or tuits lacking corners to get important but "boring" fixes in |
| 11:01 |
Dyrcona |
Right. |
| 11:01 |
* rfrasur |
abstains |
| 11:01 |
bshum |
I agree, that approach for important bug fixes sounds reasonable to me too. |
| 11:01 |
Dyrcona |
I agree with that sentiment. |
| 11:02 |
eeevil |
and, yes, I'm asking this now because there are a pile of these that would make 2.4.1 significantly better, but they haven't gotten developer eyeballs. if production use is "good enough", though, I want to push them in |
| 11:08 |
eeevil |
dbs, dbwells, gmcharlt, senator, berick, others? |
| 11:08 |
senator |
+1 |
| 11:09 |
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| 11:09 |
gmcharlt |
+1 |
| 11:09 |
berick |
+1 w/ the (probably obvious) caveat that it go on LP and others be given a chance to reivew before merging. |
| 11:09 |
gmcharlt |
I agree with berick's caveat |
| 11:10 |
phasefx |
+1 |
| 11:10 |
|
kayals joined #evergreen |
| 11:10 |
senator |
yeah +1 to berick's caveat as well |
| 11:12 |
dbwells |
I think the caveat is a good idea, but what would be the timeframe for that? One week? |
| 11:12 |
dbs |
-1 to "in production" as good enough. "in production" means "with one very limited set of settings" |
| 11:13 |
eeevil |
dbs: what is good enough, then, for a bug fix? |
| 11:14 |
dbs |
and they may be in production, without the other fixes that are in production elsewhere, with not so good results |
| 11:14 |
eeevil |
dbs: code changes that aren't tested in production are tested on (normally) one non-author developer's test server |
| 11:15 |
gmcharlt |
dbs: I grant that that is a real concern, but do you have any alternative? a good many things simply do not get tested adequately before they hit master; at least bugfixes that are in actual production use have at least a bit more going for them, no? |
| 11:17 |
dbs |
The alternative that I proposed in the past was a commit checklist, which has had no adoption, but would probably be a good idea for sites to look through. |
| 11:18 |
eeevil |
to be clear, all, I'm talking about but fixes for common problems. IOW, things that have been seen (in this case, that I have seen) at multiple EG sites, for which a fix has been developed and shown to work |
| 11:18 |
dbwells |
I've sometimes wondered if we should adopt a more general bug-aging policy, i.e. and bugfix branch older than X is fair game for the author to commit. This would not apply to features, and I am not sure what "X" should be. |
| 11:19 |
dbs |
Note that I serve as a warning; I created a fix for the fine generator logs that silenced the logs, but with the unexpected side effect of a closed date preventing fines from continuing |
| 11:19 |
eeevil |
s/but/bug/ |
| 11:19 |
dbwells |
I know it isn't the ideal, but an attempt to be realistic about what we can actually accomplish, which I think is what we are talking about here. |
| 11:21 |
eeevil |
dbs: you're not alone, as you well know (**points at self**), but that's also much more rare these days |
| 11:21 |
dbs |
I'm not sure we know what we _want_ to accomplish |
| 11:21 |
eeevil |
dbwells: for my part, yes, I'm trying to find a way to get real problems fixed without straying from convention where at all possible |
| 11:22 |
dbs |
What I would want to accomplish would be to have a reasonable amount of certainty that a commit doesn't introduce regressions for common but complex scenarios. |
| 11:23 |
dbs |
Sounds like phasefx is working towards that with the recreation of Ben's effort from a couple of summers back of an auto-installing VM that runs various test cases and reports on the results, which would be a good move. |
| 11:23 |
eeevil |
dbs: in an existential sense? ;) I know what I'm trying to accomplish: fixes are offered based on problems at live sites, but they are not of the type that many EG developers care about, or feel comfortable working on, or believe effects them or their site |
| 11:24 |
eeevil |
and I'm trying to find an equivalent to "wait for someone to care" |
| 11:25 |
dbs |
eeevil: no, I sometimes wonder whether one of the goals is "bug inbox zero" and whether that's actually a worthwhile goal (sez the guy with a mail inbox in the thousands) |
| 11:25 |
rfrasur |
I wonder, and I know there's more to it than this, and feel free to ignore...but say there are 30 that could be committed...the in production fixes...and 10 of them cause another problem. Isn't that still 20 that didn't and 10 that can have new bug reports filed that push them on to the most recent version...and get more attention? |
| 11:25 |
dbs |
wasn't there a bug that was opened and committed in less than half an hour last week? |
| 11:26 |
dbs |
https://bugs.launchpad.net/evergreen/+bug/1200735/+activity - people care about some things |
| 11:26 |
pinesol_green |
Launchpad bug 1200735 in Evergreen 2.4 "patron search by user name can be slow" (affected: 1, heat: 6) [Undecided,Fix committed] |
| 11:27 |
eeevil |
they certainly do |
| 11:31 |
dbs |
fwiw, postgresql is struggling with the "we need reviewers" problem too. It's a hard problem. I'm still -1 to this proposal, but it's not like the decision needs to be unanimous. |
| 11:31 |
berick |
funny, i patted myself on the back for getting that taken care of quickly. |
| 11:32 |
* berick |
reminds self to let things simmer in all cases |
| 11:33 |
gmcharlt |
it also points to another factor -- simmering time as compared to the complexity of the patch |
| 11:33 |
dbwells |
I am also -1 on this proposal, but that is mostly out of default, and not having enough time and information to properly consider the whole situation. |
| 11:33 |
eeevil |
since there is reasonable and thoughtful objection to "production testing is not enough", I'll be leaving 2 bug fixes unmerged for 2.4.1, unless someone wants to put their name on them next to mine. the two bugs, for reference, are: https://bugs.launchpad.net/evergreen/+bug/1200770 https://bugs.launchpad.net/evergreen/+bug/1200768 |
| 11:33 |
pinesol_green |
Launchpad bug 1200770 in Evergreen 2.4 "Search result rendering can crush the system" (affected: 1, heat: 6) [High,New] |
| 11:33 |
pinesol_green |
Launchpad bug 1200768 in Evergreen "2 remaining authority fixed fields out of whack" (affected: 1, heat: 6) [Medium,New] |
| 11:34 |
gmcharlt |
I can vouch for 1200700, having done quite a bit of back and forth with eeevil over it, FWIW |
| 11:34 |
dbs |
bug 1200700 |
| 11:34 |
pinesol_green |
Launchpad bug 1200700 in touch-preview-images "mako cannot suspend due to sensor activity" (affected: 2, heat: 12) [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1200700 |
| 11:35 |
gmcharlt |
1200770, that is # base 16 for LP numbers, pretty please! ;) |
| 11:35 |
dbs |
Man, you guys do some wayout things |
| 11:35 |
dbs |
:) |
| 11:35 |
dbwells |
:) |
| 11:35 |
gmcharlt |
dbs: I keep saying I want robots at the circ desk! :) |
| 11:36 |
dbs |
complexity, severity, local priorities, expertise - all compounding factors, and poor old i18n gets crushed in many cases :/ |
| 11:36 |
eeevil |
there's a third that I wanted to get in too, and if my stirring up this mess gets eyes on it that it's been worth it, but it's much newer than those two: https://bugs.launchpad.net/evergreen/+bug/1201962 |
| 11:36 |
pinesol_green |
Launchpad bug 1201962 in Evergreen 2.4 "hold count by record includes useless where clause" (affected: 1, heat: 6) [Medium,New] |
| 11:37 |
dbs |
eeevil: yeah, that one sounded good. |
| 11:38 |
dbs |
Many of these would be slam-dunks if we could drop them in, run a standard set of system tests, and note any differences in performance or output |
| 11:39 |
dbs |
Otherwise, we eyeball it and take our chances, or go through the laborious process of setting up a test environment, test data, profiling, etc to try and do what machines do better anyway |
| 11:39 |
eeevil |
dbs: right, and that is what phasefx is working towards, but until then my hope was (in the case of 1200770) that multiple production sites would be enough |
| 11:39 |
dbwells |
eeevil: thanks for posting the bugs, I think that clarifies what you are asking |
| 11:40 |
eeevil |
hrm, perhaps that's a factor to consider, actually. if /multiple/ production sites use the fix, does that make a difference in terms of "production = sign-off"? |
| 11:41 |
gmcharlt |
could that be reified a bit? i.e., ask affected users to sign off (or simply posted in the LP bug)? |
| 11:41 |
gmcharlt |
*post in the LP bug |
| 11:42 |
phasefx |
fwiw, I ask customers to click the Affects Me thing in launchpad |
| 11:42 |
phasefx |
or even provide feedback on whether a fix works |
| 11:43 |
dbwells |
Whenever I review a patch, if it notes that it is used in production, that is major boost to my confidence in the fix. Maybe the best thing to do is simply be more overt about it, and thereby increase reviewer confidence? |
| 11:46 |
dbs |
multiple production sites with different configurations, usage profiles, etc, sure; i'm with dbwells on the confidence boost |
| 11:46 |
eeevil |
dbwells: part of the problem is getting reviewers, IME ... but, that's a great idea and I'll make a point of doing that |
| 11:48 |
eeevil |
as for getting users to poke the bug, sure. for those engaged, absolutely (and, in these cases, several are and would) |
| 11:48 |
dbs |
in retrospect, this might have been a good topic for the dev meeting |
| 11:49 |
eeevil |
dbs: yes, I should have raised it then (I realized that when I started the "poll time" stuff...) |
| 11:49 |
rfrasur |
(there will be another) |
| 11:49 |
eeevil |
but I figured better now than wait another month/release |
| 11:51 |
dbs |
Maybe post a summary to the mailing list? For those who didn't happen to be in-channel at the time? |
| 11:52 |
|
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| 11:54 |
eeevil |
I'd feel comfortable mentioning the discussion and my position, and pointing to the IRC logs, but I don't want to misrepresent anyone in a summary (TBH, I don't understand some positions well enough to summarize, but that's certainly my own failing) |
| 11:55 |
senator |
you could tally the votes though, right? no big deal to do that, and it makes for an easier read |
| 11:55 |
eeevil |
but, yes, wider (transparent) discussion is certainly warranted. at the very least, amongst the committers who will be tasked with cleaning up the fallout of any changes to the process or code... should such changes occur ;) |
| 11:56 |
dbwells |
Is anyone actively working on bug 1200770? If not, I'll give it a go. |
| 11:56 |
pinesol_green |
Launchpad bug 1200770 in Evergreen 2.4 "Search result rendering can crush the system" (affected: 1, heat: 6) [High,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1200770 |
| 11:56 |
eeevil |
senator: sure .. but I don't want to give this the weight of any sort of "official" vote. I really was looking for opinions to see if my interpretation of the /intent/ of our policies was in line with everyone else |
| 11:57 |
eeevil |
dbwells: I think you can safely assume no (and even if that's wrong, more eyes!) |
| 11:58 |
rfrasur |
kmlussier++ |
| 11:59 |
gmcharlt |
speaking of the dev meeting ... I found it unfortunate that it was lightly attended, particularly in comparison to previous ones |
| 11:59 |
gmcharlt |
just summer doldrums? |
| 12:00 |
* senator |
imagines a literal absence of trade winds to tumble interested parties toward machines with IRC clients |
| 12:00 |
* kmlussier |
pokes her head up. |
| 12:00 |
* gmcharlt |
will start huffing and puffing before the next one, then ;) |
| 12:01 |
kmlussier |
I think the June one was quiet too. |
| 12:02 |
rfrasur |
June/July is busy time for other things. Maybe related? |
| 12:03 |
Dyrcona |
I had another meeting to attend with the people who pay my salary, so paycheck won out. |
| 12:03 |
rfrasur |
paychecks++ |
| 12:03 |
kmlussier |
Dyrcona++ |
| 12:04 |
* dbs |
is trying to transition into more of a focus on schema.org, although fortuitously I get to hack on Evergreen as a reference implementation |
| 12:06 |
dbs |
also full-text search on PostgreSQL; also (tertiary) mozilla dev docs |
| 12:08 |
dbs |
and in my spare time, i'd like to actually work on TPAC responsive design more seriously. |
| 12:08 |
rfrasur |
spare_time++ |
| 12:09 |
rfrasur |
spare_time=imaginary |
| 12:09 |
dbs |
Meanwhile it's one of the two or three weeks of the year where I actually wish we had A/C. |
| 12:10 |
dbs |
rfrasur: in theory, TPAC responsive design + mozilla dev docs + schema.org reference implementation all intersect, if you squint the right way |
| 12:10 |
rfrasur |
if we didn't have A/C, I'd be revolting |
| 12:10 |
rfrasur |
dbs: not sure you have to squint too much to see the intersection. |
| 12:11 |
* rfrasur |
has successfully tracked down all lib credit card receipts to reconcile statement and now wonders why exactly she's doing this job. |
| 12:12 |
senator |
dbs: before we all had AC down here, we had the mint julep |
| 12:13 |
rfrasur |
(to feed and clothe your children) |
| 12:13 |
rfrasur |
senator: I like that idea. |
| 12:19 |
dbwells |
eeevil: re:1200770, it seems like we might be missing an 'next' where we push the $bid back on. Otherwise, it seems like we end up running the request again anyway, since it is in just a bare 'else'. |
| 12:21 |
* eeevil |
looks |
| 12:22 |
dbs |
QA note for phasefx: recording log file sizes and looking for size increases over time might be worthwhile |
| 12:23 |
phasefx |
dbs: good idea. Besides explicit tests with assertions, I'm also thinking of doing straight up diffs of various outputs between runs, and logs certainly qualify |
| 12:25 |
dbs |
phasefx: yeah, diffs of expected output is pretty common. logs are going to be fuzzier due to time stamps and what not :/ |
| 12:25 |
phasefx |
yeah |
| 12:27 |
eeevil |
dbwells: yes. I'm going to force-push a 'next' in there |
| 12:29 |
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| 12:29 |
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| 12:30 |
eeevil |
dbwells: complete |
| 12:30 |
dbwells |
eeevil: thanks, will test |
| 12:33 |
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| 12:36 |
eeevil |
dbwells: thank you, kind sir |
| 12:36 |
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| 12:41 |
gmcharlt |
dbwells++ |
| 12:41 |
gmcharlt |
eeevil: I'm going to do some torture testing of that now |
| 12:41 |
eeevil |
gmcharlt: cool, thanks |
| 12:46 |
gmcharlt |
eeevil: OK, looks good |
| 12:46 |
gmcharlt |
again |
| 12:46 |
gmcharlt |
dbwells++ |
| 12:47 |
dbwells |
ok, everything looks fine from this end, signing-off now |
| 12:52 |
pinesol_green |
[evergreen|Mike Rylander] Implement a concurrent-run cache for result rendering a la initial search queue compression - <http://git.evergreen-ils.org/?p=Evergreen.git;a=commit;h=ae25f78> |
| 12:52 |
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| 13:00 |
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| 13:07 |
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| 13:09 |
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| 13:15 |
rfrasur |
We used to have a part-time bookkeeper that would come to the library twice a month. I have no idea how she got it all done in that amt of time. Either she was WAY better or I'm adding work (or both). |
| 13:20 |
eeevil |
so ... anybody care to grab 28c99aa069973994a0feef7a4a6841b035806b9f from bug 1200768? |
| 13:20 |
pinesol_green |
Launchpad bug 1200768 in Evergreen "2 remaining authority fixed fields out of whack" (affected: 1, heat: 6) [Medium,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1200768 |
| 13:21 |
|
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| 13:23 |
eeevil |
grabbing 0810 and and 0811 |
| 13:32 |
rfrasur |
@hates Internet Explorer |
| 13:32 |
pinesol_green |
rfrasur: (hates [<channel>] [<user>]) -- Find out what <user> hates |
| 13:32 |
kmlussier |
@hate Internet Explorer |
| 13:32 |
pinesol_green |
kmlussier: The operation succeeded. kmlussier hates Internet Explorer. |
| 13:32 |
pinesol_green |
[evergreen|Lebbeous Fogle-Weekley] Authorities: 4XX fields have wrong names - <http://git.evergreen-ils.org/?p=Evergreen.git;a=commit;h=a4266ef> |
| 13:32 |
pinesol_green |
[evergreen|Mike Rylander] Stamping upgrade script for authority labeling fix - <http://git.evergreen-ils.org/?p=Evergreen.git;a=commit;h=bc9ea5c> |
| 13:32 |
pinesol_green |
[evergreen|Fredrick Parks] LP 1103706 Hold ratios in circ policies cause errors when trying to renew items - <http://git.evergreen-ils.org/?p=Evergreen.git;a=commit;h=8961846> |
| 13:32 |
pinesol_green |
[evergreen|Mike Rylander] Stamping upgrade script for copy stats SP fix - <http://git.evergreen-ils.org/?p=Evergreen.git;a=commit;h=71b2988> |
| 13:33 |
rfrasur |
@hate Internet Explorer |
| 13:33 |
pinesol_green |
rfrasur: The operation succeeded. rfrasur hates Internet Explorer. |
| 13:33 |
kmlussier |
@whocares Internet Explorer |
| 13:33 |
pinesol_green |
kmlussier and rfrasur hate Internet Explorer |
| 13:33 |
kmlussier |
@whocares IE |
| 13:33 |
pinesol_green |
kmlussier: I can't find anyone who loves or hates IE. |
| 13:33 |
rfrasur |
@hate IE |
| 13:33 |
pinesol_green |
rfrasur: The operation succeeded. rfrasur hates IE. |
| 13:34 |
rfrasur |
@hate little blue e |
| 13:34 |
pinesol_green |
rfrasur: The operation succeeded. rfrasur hates little blue e. |
| 13:38 |
pinesol_green |
[evergreen|Dan Scott] Avoid Z39.50 search warning for uninit var - <http://git.evergreen-ils.org/?p=Evergreen.git;a=commit;h=55e62cb> |
| 13:42 |
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| 13:44 |
* paxed |
bravely slays another small bug. |
| 13:44 |
rfrasur |
paxed++ |
| 13:45 |
* rfrasur |
wishes there was a lefthanded tab key |
| 13:46 |
* tsbere |
has had keyboards with 3 different tab keys before |
| 13:46 |
rfrasur |
did they come that way or did you map the keys? |
| 13:46 |
tsbere |
came that way. One in the normal spot, one on the right, and one on the numpad |
| 13:47 |
rfrasur |
that's what I really want. one on the number pad |
| 13:47 |
tsbere |
I have also had secondary numpads that included tab keys. Both PS2 and USB variants. |
| 13:48 |
rfrasur |
hmm, that might be a better option. I'll have to look and see if there's one that could a legit replacement for adding machine as well. |
| 13:48 |
* rfrasur |
triple checks math |
| 13:49 |
Dyrcona |
http://www.amazon.com/Perixx-PERIPAD-201B-Numeric-Keypad-Laptop/dp/B001R674LE |
| 13:50 |
Dyrcona |
Second hit on a google search. Dunno if it would double as an adding machine to your satisfaction. |
| 13:50 |
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| 13:50 |
rfrasur |
no, but am looking. it'd work as just a ten key replacement though. (I dunno why people turn off number lock anyway) |
| 13:51 |
* tsbere |
sometimes uses numlock as a toggle for game controls, so that the numpad can serve two very different mapping purposes |
| 13:51 |
Dyrcona |
I know why people turn off number lock, one big reason being games. |
| 13:51 |
Dyrcona |
tsbere: Jinx! |
| 13:51 |
Dyrcona |
;) |
| 13:51 |
rfrasur |
lol, yeah...was thinking that. |
| 13:52 |
* rfrasur |
obviously doesn't game |
| 13:52 |
tsbere |
Some games that doesn't work for. They ignore the numlock status. <_< |
| 13:52 |
rfrasur |
well...and the same directional keys are already there...though I guess you could map the entire number pad. |
| 13:59 |
rfrasur |
http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/UDDhY-a8Zjc/hqdefault.jpg something more like that. |
| 14:00 |
rfrasur |
tho it's still obnoxiously big...but I guess something w/ a roll of paper will do that. |
| 14:01 |
pinesol_green |
[evergreen|Mike Rylander] Optimize away always-true hold count clause - <http://git.evergreen-ils.org/?p=Evergreen.git;a=commit;h=0c65803> |
| 14:01 |
eeevil |
wheee! thanks, senator! |
| 14:02 |
eeevil |
ok, hearing no response to my plea for eyes on 1200768, I'm starting the 2.4.1 cutting for realz |
| 14:14 |
* rfrasur |
cannot believe that it required $240 worth of work to fix one leaky faucet and replace interior parts of 3 toilets. |
| 14:14 |
* rfrasur |
could have fixed the stupid toilets |
| 14:14 |
eeevil |
because there was concern that 2.4.0 got the wrong translations, I want to be clear about what I'm doing for i18n. the first thing I'm doing is following http://docs.evergreen-ils.org/2.2/_updating_the_translations.html |
| 14:15 |
eeevil |
paxed / dbs: that's still correct, yes? |
| 14:22 |
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| 14:28 |
eeevil |
silence equals consent! (j/k .. but I think it's still right) |
| 14:28 |
rfrasur |
eeevil++ |
| 14:30 |
* dbs |
would at least suggest looking at the 2.4 docs, even though they're the same :) |
| 14:34 |
paxed |
eeevil: "got the wrong translations"? |
| 14:34 |
bshum |
bradl: I think I'm going to need to borrow some of your patience. Charter can't figure out my problems so they're going to send another team later in the next couple days to look at boxes further up our cable route. |
| 14:36 |
kmlussier |
bshum: It's because you laughed at the idea that your tech problems were caused by Mercury being in retrograde. |
| 14:37 |
rfrasur |
kmlussier++ |
| 14:37 |
rfrasur |
charter-- |
| 14:39 |
rfrasur |
bitesize_snickers++ |
| 14:39 |
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| 14:40 |
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| 14:41 |
bshum |
kmlussier: I paid for that in more than one way I think. |
| 14:42 |
eeevil |
paxed: something about they were from March instead of May? |
| 14:42 |
eeevil |
in any case, all I know is to pull from bzr at lauchpad |
| 14:45 |
eeevil |
dbs: and, yes ... good point :) |
| 14:54 |
* dbs |
finds it odd / disturbing that tpac.pot isn't in the translation-export branch, but might have forgotten everything about how launchpad translations work |
| 14:56 |
* rfrasur |
balanced the credit card statement on the first try! |
| 14:58 |
jboyer-isl |
9 joins in one query. I hate dealing with money. |
| 14:58 |
jboyer-isl |
Bonus: doesn't work. |
| 14:59 |
rfrasur |
jboyer-isl: in EG? we haven't tried balancing EG w/ anything yet as far as money goes. |
| 14:59 |
* rfrasur |
cringes at the thought. |
| 14:59 |
jboyer-isl |
I'm working on the thing that you'll need to balance in the future. It's not a great time. |
| 14:59 |
jboyer-isl |
On this end. What it will give you is great. When it works. |
| 15:00 |
rfrasur |
jboyer-isl: I'd said I was excited about it...but let's be serious. |
| 15:00 |
* rfrasur |
has been doing accounting for 5 hours |
| 15:00 |
* rfrasur |
is a librarian |
| 15:01 |
jboyer-isl |
"Great" might be a bit much, but "not horrible" doesn't have the same ring to it. |
| 15:01 |
rfrasur |
no, no. I like "not horrible." |
| 15:01 |
rfrasur |
it's much less intimidating |
| 15:03 |
Dyrcona |
Kind of like "mostly harmless?" |
| 15:03 |
* rfrasur |
likes that too... |
| 15:04 |
rfrasur |
although when it deals with money, I'd prefer "mostly works but can be finagled into some semblance of accuracy and compliance." |
| 15:04 |
jboyer-isl |
You can finaggle things for 6 libraries, but not 106. |
| 15:04 |
Dyrcona |
When it comes to accounting, I'd just point to the big 5 banks and say, "If they don't have to, why should I?" |
| 15:05 |
rfrasur |
Dyrcona: because we're little and easily squashable. |
| 15:05 |
rfrasur |
jboyer-isl: truth |
| 15:07 |
Dyrcona |
jboyer-isl: You can finagle anything for any number of anyones.... You just have to be a CPA. |
| 15:07 |
Dyrcona |
Oops. I got political again. |
| 15:07 |
* Dyrcona |
shuts up. |
| 15:07 |
rfrasur |
Dyrcona++ # Happy Wednesday |
| 15:08 |
paxed |
less than 2 hours left of it... so i'm going to bed. g'night folks. |
| 15:08 |
Dyrcona |
jboyer-isl: On a related note: If you think billing is a mess now, just wait until I'm done with it this summer. ;) |
| 15:08 |
rfrasur |
g'nite paxed |
| 15:08 |
Dyrcona |
good night. |
| 15:08 |
rfrasur |
(okay thank you Lord...they're printing in the right order this time) |
| 15:08 |
jboyer-isl |
That's good an ominous. I take it you won't be consolidating anything then? |
| 15:09 |
Dyrcona |
No plans for much consolidation. |
| 15:09 |
jboyer-isl |
an = and. sometimes I actually annunciate. |
| 15:10 |
Dyrcona |
Typos are excused in IRC. |
| 15:10 |
Dyrcona |
At least in this channel. |
| 15:10 |
jboyer-isl |
Oh well. As long as large portions aren't ripped out and re-plumbed, I'm hoping that what I'm doing won't need to be updated (much.) |
| 15:10 |
Dyrcona |
http://www.sigio.com/evergreen/billing2013.html |
| 15:11 |
Dyrcona |
That's the main specification document. |
| 15:14 |
jboyer-isl |
void_payment will actually do me a bit of good, then I can just ignore things past a certain date rather than sprinkle "...voided IS FALSE" around. The rest shouldn't hurt. They sound like really positive improvements. |
| 15:14 |
rfrasur |
@hate void |
| 15:14 |
pinesol_green |
rfrasur: The operation succeeded. rfrasur hates void. |
| 15:15 |
* Dyrcona |
wrote for a 'zine called VOID back in High School. |
| 15:15 |
rfrasur |
I don't hate THAT void |
| 15:15 |
Dyrcona |
heh. |
| 15:15 |
Dyrcona |
Typicaly teenage angst and anarchism. |
| 15:15 |
rfrasur |
of course. |
| 15:16 |
kmlussier |
jboyer-isl: What are you working on in billing? |
| 15:17 |
jboyer-isl |
Oh, we're trying to allow patrons to pay all of their bills at any location, but still get the money where it's supposed to go. We're close, but the process we've had misses some things and duplicates others. I'm trying to hammer things into a shape that looks more correct. |
| 15:18 |
rfrasur |
the shape of a dollar sign, that is. cha-ching |
| 15:19 |
kmlussier |
jboyer-isl: Sounds good. |
| 15:19 |
berick |
@isitdown http://docs.evergreen-ils.org/ |
| 15:19 |
pinesol_green |
berick: Zoia knows how to make fusilli. |
| 15:19 |
* berick |
chuckles |
| 15:19 |
rfrasur |
lol |
| 15:22 |
rfrasur |
well y'all. thanks for not kicking me out today. Time to hit the road...but not literally...because I'm pain averse. Be well, stay cool...and stop working soon. |
| 15:26 |
bshum |
dbwells: Active directory question (some folks thinking to explore this more), is it just to set the options in opensrf.xml according? Or is there some user sync up that needs to occur to get Evergreen to recognize user in Evergreen = user in AD? |
| 15:27 |
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| 15:28 |
* bshum |
should go find the original docs actually. |
| 15:28 |
* bshum |
will do some more research |
| 15:28 |
* eeevil |
enters the i18n-building doldrums |
| 15:28 |
dbwells |
bshum: if they have the same username, they are the same user as far as the code is concerned. |
| 15:28 |
dbwells |
The process of getting the users into Evergreen is separate. |
| 15:29 |
eeevil |
and left as an exercise for the reader ;) |
| 15:30 |
bshum |
dbwells: Gotcha. I guess we'll have to ponder how that happens. |
| 15:30 |
bshum |
Thanks! |
| 15:30 |
dbs |
If one has as sadistic an IT department as ours, one might be able to do something with http://git.evergreen-ils.org/?p=contrib/Conifer.git;a=blob;f=tools/patron-load/ldap_osrf_sync;h=cf3c9b8edbffdb4d458baa2d88dcb61a2a7c0ac1;hb=refs/heads/feature/tools/patron_load_2_4 |
| 15:32 |
dbs |
Requires a few other branches for auto-generating barcodes and using email addresses for usrname rather than LDAP CNs under the covers, and lots of local customization... but works for us. |
| 15:34 |
bshum |
dbs: Ooh, thanks that might prove useful too. |
| 15:34 |
bshum |
It's some school system that's thinking to use active directory authentication for their students. |
| 15:34 |
bshum |
We've never done it before, so it'll be an interesting little exercise. |
| 15:37 |
dbwells |
bshum: our LDAP user sync script was the first thing I wrote for our Evergreen migration way back when. It's still kicking, but I am mostly afraid to look at it these days. That said, at least it isn't Python ;) |
| 15:37 |
eeevil |
dbwells++ ;) |
| 15:38 |
berick |
hey, someone that's not me used the python libs. dbs++ |
| 15:38 |
* berick |
has to balance the karma |
| 15:40 |
dbs |
But where are our Go bindings? :) |
| 15:41 |
* dbs |
is self-hosting goread.io on a free-tier app engine instance; Go + AngularJS + Google App Engine, innarestin' world |
| 15:42 |
* berick |
hasn't made it past the online Go tutorial yet |
| 15:42 |
berick |
which was cool, btw |
| 15:42 |
bshum |
dbwells: I might poke you more about that later too then. |
| 15:55 |
eeevil |
re-entering i18n doldrums ... makensis :( |
| 16:06 |
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| 16:14 |
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bshum joined #evergreen |
| 16:22 |
dbs |
Dyrcona: re bug 1201982 - can you verify that misc_util.tt2 matches the diff at http://git.evergreen-ils.org/?p=working/Evergreen.git;a=commitdiff;h=aeabe10c51b502a7d9256c2e760fca13e726fdf3 on your test server? |
| 16:22 |
pinesol_green |
Launchpad bug 1201982 in Evergreen "TPAC: In copy table, link library name to an external URL (if OU setting exists)" (affected: 1, heat: 6) [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1201982 |
| 16:27 |
Dyrcona |
No, it doesn't. |
| 16:27 |
Dyrcona |
I'll make a new branch for tomorrow. |
| 16:27 |
* dbs |
feels his "warning: high levels of insanity" alert subsiding :) |
| 16:28 |
dbs |
Dyrcona++ |
| 16:28 |
Dyrcona |
I did a git merge and thought it looked a little weird as the list of modified files showed up. |
| 16:29 |
dbs |
might have been my fault for rebasing & force-pushing |
| 16:30 |
kmlussier |
dbs: Sorry! Didn't mean to trigger any insanity alerts. :) |
| 16:30 |
Dyrcona |
Well, that's probably why the merge came out like it did, but I wouldn't exactly say it was your fault. |
| 16:30 |
* Dyrcona |
just discovered that Chromium allows you to drag tabs between windows. That is useful with two monitors. |
| 16:32 |
* dbs |
just updated the bugs.launchpad.net/evergreen help stuff to ask people for "what happened / what did you expect to happen / what steps can we follow to reproduce this problem" in bug reports |
| 16:33 |
* berick |
sends out his preview uploaded form letter |
| 16:33 |
dbs |
not related to the linked libraries thing! also, yes, dragging tabs around is good :) |
| 16:33 |
Dyrcona |
Yeah, I love it when we get bugs reports of "I did Y and X happened." |
| 16:34 |
pinesol_green |
[evergreen|Mike Rylander] Pulling in 2.4.1 upgrade script - <http://git.evergreen-ils.org/?p=Evergreen.git;a=commit;h=32c56dc> |
| 16:34 |
gmcharlt |
Dyrcona: ... and I expected Z (not D, E, or F) |
| 16:35 |
Dyrcona |
gmcharlt: No, they never tell us what they expected. I am tempted to just close the ticket with X is the expected behavior. |
| 16:35 |
Dyrcona |
We don't get a lot of that on Launchpad, though once in a while.... |
| 16:40 |
eeevil |
SUPER: "asciidoc: WARNING: README: line 390: no output from filter: source-highlight -f xhtml -s bash" :( |
| 16:40 |
eeevil |
and, of course, asciidoc isn't on lupin. ah, well ... any ideas, anyone? |
| 16:41 |
Dyrcona |
Try changing to sh instead of bash in the README? |
| 16:41 |
* eeevil |
attempts |
| 16:42 |
dbs |
might depend on the version of source-highlight, too. I'm pretty sure [source, bash] is used heavily |
| 16:43 |
dbs |
Yeah. what are you building on? |
| 16:43 |
eeevil |
dbs: actually, I'm sure that's it. /me looks for an update |
| 16:43 |
eeevil |
this step is being attempted on slackware :) |
| 16:43 |
dbs |
GNU Source-highlight 3.1.6 (library: 4:0:0) here on good ol' Fedora |
| 16:44 |
Dyrcona |
Version 3.1.5-1 on Ubuntu 12.04. |
| 16:44 |
eeevil |
3.1.7 here |
| 16:45 |
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| 16:46 |
Dyrcona |
kmlussier: I have the branch ready so I'm just going to go ahead and build it. I think I'll need to run two upgrade scripts: 0810 and 0811. |
| 16:51 |
Dyrcona |
Hrm..... Not in master? |
| 16:51 |
Dyrcona |
Doh..... |
| 16:51 |
Dyrcona |
pushed a new branch to the dev vm, but didn't check it out. |
| 16:52 |
|
smyers__ joined #evergreen |
| 16:53 |
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dMiller_ joined #evergreen |
| 16:53 |
Dyrcona |
Well..... That's embarrassing. Seems that I forgot a pull. |
| 16:58 |
|
kayals_ joined #evergreen |
| 17:03 |
eeevil |
ok, well, readme will have to wait |
| 17:03 |
eeevil |
asciidoc hates me a LOT today |
| 17:04 |
kmlussier |
That's because Mercury is in retrograde. |
| 17:05 |
Dyrcona |
Yes, I can see how that would make communications difficult. ;) |
| 17:05 |
eeevil |
kmlussier: that's what bshum was saying on the twitters ... I'm starting to believe it |
| 17:06 |
bshum |
I can't even remember what day of the week it is anymore. |
| 17:08 |
Dyrcona |
ALTER FUNCTION action.copy_related_hold_stats(bigint) |
| 17:08 |
Dyrcona |
OWNER TO evergreen; |
| 17:08 |
Dyrcona |
Looks like a "bug" in the 0811 upgrade script to me..... |
| 17:08 |
eeevil |
ok ... testers wanted! http://evergreen-ils.org/downloads/previews/ has a pile of 2.4.1 files for lookin'. tests appreciated. waiting for at least one set of eyes to avoid brown-bagging |
| 17:08 |
eeevil |
AND THERE'S THER FIRST! ;) |
| 17:09 |
eeevil |
Dyrcona: yeah... I'm gonna remove that with a big ol' chainsaw |
| 17:09 |
dbs |
Dyrcona++ |
| 17:11 |
Dyrcona |
bah. pushing to a checked out branch is not advisable.... |
| 17:16 |
pinesol_green |
[evergreen|Mike Rylander] Explicit function ownership is not the job of upgrade scripts - <http://git.evergreen-ils.org/?p=Evergreen.git;a=commit;h=e66ddf9> |
| 17:17 |
eeevil |
berick: I'll leave extracting that ALTER FUNCTION line from 2.3 to you, so I'm not changing rel_2_3 while you're doing the release dance |
| 17:21 |
Dyrcona |
kmlussier: All the latest goodies are installed on my dev VM. |
| 17:22 |
|
mmorgan left #evergreen |
| 17:22 |
berick |
eeevil: what's problem exactly? |
| 17:22 |
eeevil |
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand makerelease didn't make a changelog |
| 17:23 |
eeevil |
WHE |
| 17:23 |
kmlussier |
Dyrcona++ |
| 17:23 |
eeevil |
berick: if your PG user isn't called 'evergreen' then *boom* |
| 17:23 |
berick |
oohh |
| 17:23 |
berick |
no wonder I got no boom ;) |
| 17:23 |
Dyrcona |
Yep. that's what happened when I applied to my development db. |
| 17:23 |
berick |
thanks for the heads up |
| 17:23 |
eeevil |
me too :) |
| 17:26 |
eeevil |
ok ... well, the 2.4.1 stuff is "ready", except for the README html generation and the changelog. I'll do those by hand tomorrow. testers wanted ... TIA |
| 17:28 |
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| 17:35 |
smyers__ |
After reading the evergreen paid support vendors thread I was wondering what the protocol for updating the list here is http://evergreen-ils.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=faqs:evergreen_companies |
| 17:35 |
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| 17:35 |
smyers__ |
I have an account and can edit the page just looking for comfirmation that its the correct way to go about that |
| 17:37 |
phasefx |
smyers__: there's no real protocol yet, though I hope we get one; feel free to put your entry in there in alphabetical order |
| 17:38 |
smyers__ |
phasefx: thanks will do |
| 17:38 |
smyers__ |
I would hope we get one as well |
| 17:44 |
* berick |
applied fixes by hand to the 2.3.9 tarball |
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* rfrasur |
listens to David Karp and Stephen Colbert. |
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| 17:49 |
rfrasur |
@wunder 47353 |
| 17:49 |
pinesol_green |
rfrasur: The current temperature in APRSWXNET Liberty IN US, Liberty, Indiana is 90.0°F (5:26 PM EDT on July 17, 2013). Conditions: Scattered Clouds. Humidity: 56%. Dew Point: 71.6°F. Pressure: 30.23 in 1024 hPa (Falling). Heat advisory in effect until 9 PM EDT Friday... |
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| 19:27 |
gsams |
I'm once more on a mission of discovery, I was wondering if anyone might know if it is possible to create a new item status and set it to show up in the catalog as if it were "available." |
| 19:27 |
gsams |
so it would show up as a 1/1 in the OPAC if a patron were to look it up |
| 19:28 |
gsams |
I know how to create an item status, so I suppose that isn't part of the question really |
| 19:28 |
gsams |
but the other part, that one seems a bit involved at the very least. |
| 19:34 |
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| 19:51 |
jeff |
gsams: What's your goal? |
| 19:57 |
gsams |
jeff: We have a few libraries that are using Overdrive, they wanted to show the items as available in our system without the status saying available because they feel that would be... confusing... |
| 19:58 |
jeff |
gsams: you probably want to use located URIs |
| 19:58 |
jeff |
gsams: you can put the link to the overdrive record page in an 856 tag in the bib record |
| 19:59 |
jeff |
gsams: you tag it with an org unit shortname, and then that bib (and a link to the overdrive record) will show in search results for that library and its children. |
| 19:59 |
jeff |
gsams: what version of Evergreen are you on? |
| 19:59 |
gsams |
jeff: 2.3.5 |
| 20:00 |
jeff |
See Making electronic resources visible in the catalog here: http://docs.evergreen-ils.org/2.3/_migrating_from_a_legacy_system.html |
| 20:01 |
jeff |
And the 856 tag on this record for an example: http://catalog.tadl.org/eg/opac/record/46705848?locg=22;expand=marchtml#marchtml |
| 20:01 |
jeff |
(note that we added some bits to our template to make the "Connect to this resource online" button larger) |
| 20:02 |
jeff |
That will likely be a better approach than trying to make a new copy status and creating dummy copies. |
| 20:03 |
gsams |
jeff: Ah, we already use the 856 tag setup, though apparently not in this way |
| 20:04 |
gsams |
http://roanoke.northtexaslibraries.org/eg/opac/record/1287079?query=Dead%20until%20Dark;qtype=keyword;locg=106 |
| 20:04 |
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| 20:05 |
gsams |
I will forward this information on to the people that handle it though, that would be more appropriate. I can always make a button larger. |
| 20:18 |
jeff |
sounds good. |
| 20:22 |
gsams |
jeff++ |
| 20:23 |
gsams |
thanks for your time, this should be easy to convince them of |
| 20:27 |
jeff |
you're welcome! |
