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IRC log for #evergreen, 2015-03-27

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Time Nick Message
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04:49 pinesol_green Incoming from qatests: Test Failure - http://testing.evergreen-ils.org/~live/test.html <http://testing.evergreen-ils.org/~live/test.html>
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08:55 * csharp really needs to surrender and learn perl properly rather than trying to make bash do things it really just doesn't do well
08:56 csharp but I *know* bash - it's a language I speak, and trying to translate everything to perl ends up taking way more time than I have
08:56 csharp so it's a loop
08:57 csharp today's problem: re-architect my OCLC bibs/holdings export script so that it processes records with too many holdings separately
08:58 csharp and when you get to the point where you want to use arrays in bash, it's probably time to switch to perl
08:58 Dyrcona probably....but I don't know how you're trying to do what you're trying to do.
08:59 Dyrcona perl makes a great replacement for sed, too. :)
08:59 csharp yeah
08:59 csharp well, currently, I use psql to export the bib list, then feed that to marc_export
09:00 csharp but I've been identifying the invalid (too-long) bibs and now exclude those from the bib list
09:00 csharp but I still want to account for additions to those records since the last export, but only for the libraries that have added (with marc_exports "--library" parameter)
09:01 csharp so what I want is a list of libraries that have added holdings to the "bad" bibs, then I want to feed those library names to marc_export
09:02 Dyrcona Why not just dump each library's holding separately and send that mess to OCLC?
09:02 Dyrcona That might make them change their mind about handling "invalid" records.
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09:04 csharp hmm - that's a thought
09:05 csharp @blame OCLC
09:05 pinesol_green csharp: It really IS OCLC's fault!
09:11 Dyrcona It's 2015. You should never trust size values in input data.
09:12 Dyrcona That's a good way to get your system rooted.....
09:17 Dyrcona And, this whole discussion really highlights that fact that a new standard for sharing holdings information is required.
09:17 Dyrcona Heh. I'd be dangerous if I could type. :)
09:18 csharp :-)
09:21 Dyrcona Oh no. I hear one cataloger asking another when was the last time she used "authorities."
09:21 Dyrcona I have a hunch the next stop is my office......
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09:38 Dyrcona And, the hunch was wrong.
09:43 jonadab csharp: I have the opposite problem:  anything more complicated than a simple pipe ends up going in perl -e because I can't be bothered to learn bash control structures and whatnot.  Also, any SQL complicated enough to need a loop gets punted out to Perl.
09:49 jboyer-isl My POV is that when you're messing with IFS in bash you're probably sticking a toe over the line. I've got several scripts that do that...
09:50 jboyer-isl (I do save the current value and restore it as soon as possible, I'm not an animal.)
09:57 tsbere jboyer-isl: If you are 100% in a script file it won't tend to change outside of it anyway, unless you are in the habit of running scripts by sourcing them anyway...
10:00 jboyer-isl tsbere: true, but I may use it to create an array here, but need it to act "normally" somewhere further down. Forgetting to reset it can lead to interesting times later on.
10:00 tsbere heh
10:01 * tsbere tends to change IFS only when the remaining script after the change, or possibly the entire script after the change, is < ~15 statements.
10:04 jonadab After doing a web search for bash IFS, I am quite certain that if I were doing anything anywhere near that complicated, I would not be doing in in bash.
10:04 jonadab I mean, that's what Perl was *made for*.
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10:15 csharp jonadab: exactly - I often hit these sorts of limitations in bash and think "Oh - *this* must be the kind of thing Larry Wall got frustrated by."
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10:26 RoganH I remember once upon a time there being vague chat about an auto renewal function but that never went into any kind implementation did it?
10:26 tsbere The last time I messed with IFS I wanted to break up output only on newlines. >_>
10:27 tsbere As for auto renewal.....I think I recall saying something like "then why are you using renewals at all? Just make your loan duration the current duration * number of allowed renewals"
10:28 Dyrcona Oops....
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10:29 RoganH tsbere: long story, short version is a combination of collapsing rules and maintaining circs for statistical reasons
10:29 Dyrcona RoganH: There is no autorenewal feature.
10:29 RoganH Dyrcona: that's what I thought, thanks!
10:29 Dyrcona Library Elf might do that.
10:30 Dyrcona It sure loves to hammer patron's items out page in the OPAC.
10:31 Dyrcona oops. That's Boopsie. Library Elf gets it via XML-RPC.
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10:33 * Dyrcona thinks he might do a little cleanup on NCIPServer this weekend.
10:33 Dyrcona magnuse over in #koha on OFTC did a little rebase of my branch on master, and I've got a potential bug with the configuration to fix.
10:34 * Dyrcona guesses now is not a good time to bug rangi. :)
10:36 * Dyrcona almost never messes with IFS. Usually just goes straight to perl for anything more complicated than a couple of if statements and a loop.
10:43 jboyer-isl A Billing Mystery Appears! Can anyone guess how a billing could be added with a billing type name of "Damaged Item Correction" and a note of "SYSTEM GENERATED" when the Billing Type Id is > 100 and has a completely different name?
10:43 jboyer-isl It was not put in via psql, either. (The only way I can see how it could be done)
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10:45 Dyrcona PgAdmin? :)
10:46 jboyer-isl Not used here. :P
10:46 Dyrcona I really don't know, but with billing, nearly anything is possible.
10:47 Dyrcona Only think I could think of is an errant SQL update or a Perl script using DBI or Fieldmapper.
10:47 jboyer-isl The annoying thing is that the item was supposedly marked damaged "normally" :-/
10:48 Dyrcona Only think? Really, dude?
10:48 Dyrcona Something like that reeks of human intervention.
10:49 Dyrcona Possibly you changed/added billing types before/after this bill was introduced?
10:49 jboyer-isl That's my thought (especially since the actual billing id is our default Billing Correction code)
10:49 jboyer-isl No changes recently, certainly not in the last 2 weeks.
10:49 jboyer-isl (This bill's lifetime was 3/13 - 3/26, not a lot happening in that timefframe.)
10:50 csharp RoganH: I was thinking about autorenewal last week - the logic I was envisioning was "checkout periods remain the same as they are now - at due_date - 2 days, try to autorenew items, then notify the user with the result"
10:51 csharp the advantage of autorenew vs. longer circ duration would be that it gives the system the opportunity to say "no" if there's a hold on the item, for example
10:51 csharp not that anyone in PINES is asking for that feature, btw
10:52 csharp I was actually desiring as a patron who is often late with his library items from his non-PINES home library
10:52 csharp s/desiring as/desiring it as/
10:52 Dyrcona I think autorenew would be a useful option.
10:54 csharp since I owed $20.00 to the library for my negligence, I was brainstorming ways to avoid it in the future, and since I'm an ILS admin, "turning them in on time" was not the top idea in my head :-D
10:54 Dyrcona heh
10:55 Dyrcona Well, my home library is a member of the consortium and our central office is a pickup location from the staff that work here, so I never have that problem.
10:55 Dyrcona s/from/for/
10:55 Dyrcona Like I said earlier..... ;)
10:57 Dyrcona I can see autorenew working in conjunction with due date notices... Try to autorenew, if that fails, remind the patron that they have to return it, otherwise let them know it autorenewed.
10:58 jboyer-isl That's how I thought it might be useful. No holds - you can have it 6 weeks, holds - you get 2/3/whatever.
10:59 Dyrcona jboyer-isl: Sound almost like you're describing a dynamic due date based on conditions at check out time.
11:00 jboyer-isl Not really. I meant if the auto-renewal failed because there were holds you'd have to return it, but if there are no holds it would auto-renew. (barring any unexpected failures)
11:01 jboyer-isl Which depends on an OUS, so I wasn't being real clear on that point.
11:01 Dyrcona OK
11:02 Dyrcona As for settings, it would probably be an ou setting or two plus a patron preference to turn it on.
11:02 Dyrcona Then an A/T to make it work.
11:03 jboyer-isl I was referring to the existing "block renewals for holds" OUS, not a new one related to auto-renew.
11:05 Dyrcona Sure, but you'd need an ous to turn it on, maybe another to make it coincide with due date notifications, and then patrons ought to have a toggle to indicate if they want it or not.
11:06 Dyrcona I was just extrapolating.
11:08 jboyer-isl OK. My responses were really only related to the "dynamic due date based on conditions at check out time" statement. In my view, each auto-renew would succeed or fail when attempted based on the "block renewals for holds" OU and the presence of holds on the title/copy. You're right though, more would be needed to control auto-renewal in general.
11:09 Dyrcona Right. I think we're on the same page. :)
11:09 jboyer-isl Thumbs-up-emoji.
11:10 bshum 👍 Idly wondering what that might appear as in the logs...
11:11 bshum Ha! Amusing...
11:12 jboyer-isl I get the "unknown character" box with 4 0's in it. I expected at least the proper hex digits, but you know, Windows.
11:13 Dyrcona I get the proper hex digits.
11:13 bshum Well my phone recognized it anyways. :P
11:13 csharp mine's a question mark within a hexagon
11:14 bshum Anywho...
11:14 csharp @blame �
11:14 pinesol_green csharp: � musta been an Apple employee.
11:14 RoganH csharp: essentially autorenew is useful for us where we want longer circ durations but we don't want to sacrifice stats
11:15 tsbere RoganH: So you want longer circ durations, but you also want to boost your stats. Is your goal "set circ durations to 1 day and autorenew every night to get insane numbers of renewals"? ;)
11:15 csharp I think it would be very popular with our patrons as well as with the frontline staff who have daily arguments with people who don't want to pay because they missed the reminder notice
11:15 RoganH tsbere: no, the idea is apples to apples, we have locations like homebound that need long checkouts, sometimes as long as two months
11:15 csharp not sure about directors and boards, though
11:16 RoganH tsbere: when comparing one item out on homebound for two months versus one at our circ desk for two weeks it's not apples to apples
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11:18 tsbere RoganH: You could say the same for items returned well before their circ period ends, though. If you want to compare things you should probably be figuring out how to run stats on the actual time the item was out, not the duration it was allowed to be out.
11:19 RoganH tsbere: that would be fine for in house use but the library world as a hold uses circs as a standard and that goes through the state and then federal reporting
11:22 RoganH So, again if we want stats to be meaningful we have to compare in like ways.
11:23 * csharp wonders how a single circ's value in funding money compares to the $0.20 per day garnered in fines
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11:24 tsbere RoganH: I don't see how it would help that much overall.
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11:25 RoganH tsbere: It's a big difference.  Admin, stats, reporting through state agencies, etc... its a different world than just reporting for your own use.
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11:33 jboyer-isl So much angst. A standard call to open-ils.circ open-ils.circ.mark_item_damaged leads to this: "The system is charging 14.99 [Damaged Item Override] on xact 48951355" and this "CALL: open-ils.cstore open-ils.cstore.direct.money.billing.create {"__c":"mb","__p":["14.99",null,"Damaged Item Override",null,"SYSTEM GENERATED",null,null,null,"48951355","121"]}"
11:34 tsbere RoganH: Well, for a quick check with our data it looks like the difference for us overall would be less than a quarter of a percent (comparing "normal circ duration" and "circs getting counted for each normal circ duration they started when they exceed it" - And that includes "were returned/renewed late and started a new circ")
11:34 RoganH tsbere: it will vary library to library and scenario to scenario, for us as a total it will be small, for showing the impact of our homebound department it will be huge
11:35 RoganH tsbere: I can't just look at a summary of numbers as an abstraction, I have to look at how it affects on a department level bot as a component of my library and when compared to other homebounds when the state stats are gathered.
11:36 tsbere RoganH: Well, if you change your homebounds to do auto-renewal and the rest of the state doesn't you have now broken your comparisons as well, right?
11:36 RoganH tsbere: nope
11:37 tsbere RoganH: So "other libraries in the state do long durations with one circ, you do auto-renewal with several, and then you compare the circ numbers between them" isn't broken by your comparison stats?
11:38 RoganH tsbere: your logic is flawed because you're making an incorrect assumption
11:38 tsbere RoganH: Unless you are saying "the entire state *other than you* is currently using the multiple circs method" I don't see where my assumption is wrong on that one
11:39 RoganH tsbere:  keep looking, its a rather big and obvious mis-assumption
11:41 tsbere RoganH: I suspect we have accidentally moved to "talking about different things" because I don't see anything that you have said that contradicts what I am saying, outside your statements saying I am wrong without telling me where I am wrong anyway.
11:42 jboyer-isl Anyone interested in my ramblings: If you modify the amount billed for marking something damaged you get this new "legacy billing type" value (i.e. just a string) of "Damaged Item Override" but the billing type id is taken from an "override_btype" arg, which was somehow set to 121 in this case, but I think should stay at 7 (Damaged Item)
11:43 RoganH tsbere: you're making the false assumption that I'm trying to convince you of something now :)  It's pretty clear you have a position you're interested in pushing forward as an argument and the facts that are a part of my reality remain the same no matter your opinion.
11:43 jboyer-isl This wouldn't be so annoying if we didn't accept and re-route money all over the state because my scripts look specifically for btypes 3,4,7, and 8 to make sure the libraries that own the items always get that money.
11:44 RoganH tsbere: so, if you want help sharpening logic skills that's fine but I'm not engaged in any kind of debate
11:45 tsbere RoganH: I can't see where auto-renewal significantly benefits stats outside of the "boost the type of circ that, by virtue of the intent of that department, shouldn't be compared to regular circs anyway" - AKA, homebound circs, regardless of durations, do not (in my eyes) compare to non-homebound circs in the first place.
11:46 jeff jboyer-isl: good digging.
11:47 RoganH tsbere: and by virtue of your lack of understanding I can understand that position
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11:48 jboyer-isl Gadzooks. I'm now of the opinion that the "change amount" feature of marking items damaged is just broken. It brings up the normal "add billing" window, allowing you to choose any (manual/grocery/etc.) billing type. This is absolutely wrong, the item was marked Damaged, you use Damaged! (circ billing reasons are unavailable, obviously)
11:49 tsbere jboyer-isl: That is a good note. Though perhaps just let the original "Damaged" value be there and the default, in case someone wants to add extra types for how/why it was damaged?
11:50 jboyer-isl And we have 18 of these damned things messing with my reconciler. D:
11:52 jboyer-isl tsbere: I don't mind the " Override" part, that's good to know. It's the choose-your-own billing type id that is causing the issue. It will be whatever >100 billing type is the default on your system. So the text value may say "Damaged Item Override" but the id will be completely unrelated.
11:54 jboyer-isl I'm hard coding ours to 7 and we'll see if there's any opinion about how it works on LaunchPad later. But I've got to clean these almost-certainly-invalid bill adjustments up first. :(
11:55 tsbere jboyer-isl: I was actually saying "make the default 7, even if it doesn't normally show up in the list, by telling the list it can show 7 (or whatever it is told is the <100 default is for what is calling it, if applicable) and make it the default"
11:57 jboyer-isl I see, I wasn't following that. I can't see any reason at all to allow it to be changed though, because there's already a billing type for marking things Damaged and it works perfectly well for that. It seems bizarre to have a list of potential causes of damage in your normal list of manual billing types, just for use with this feature.
11:59 tsbere jboyer-isl: Damaged (owed to owning library) vs Damaged and Locally Repaired (owed to checkin library)? ;)
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12:03 jeffdavis dbs: thanks for the response on bug 1437069. Interesting that you folks are making such good use of the relator subfields in 710 tags, I wonder if Sitka is just unusually bad in that regard.
12:03 pinesol_green Launchpad bug 1437069 in Evergreen "Make corporate author index less strict" (affected: 1, heat: 6) [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1437069
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12:05 jeffdavis On a related note, it looks like record display is showing any 710 value as an "Added Author" (see parts/record/authors.tt2). That seems undesirable.
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12:24 jeffdavis dbs: hmm, is use of $e and $4 specifically an RDA thing?
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12:49 graced lunch!
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12:52 dbs jeffdavis: nope, $e / $4 has not specifically been an RDA thing
12:53 dbs In our case we use the $4 pbl a fair bit to identify the electronic platform on which e-books are available (e.g. Springer vs. Wiley vs. EBSCO)
12:55 jeffdavis Have you modified your record display so that you don't get "Springer (Added Author)" and so on?
12:57 dbs jeffdavis: I seem to remember that being something that we fixed locally in a rush, failed to get into a proper evergreen bug, then when we upgraded to 2.7 got bit by again
12:58 jeffdavis ah
12:59 dbs well, if there _is_ a $4 pbl it should say "Springer (Publisher)"
12:59 jeffdavis I see there was some discussion about this in IRC recently: http://irc.evergreen-ils.org/​evergreen/2015-03-03#i_160617
12:59 dbs it's just if there is no $4 at all that the display doesn't really know what to do about it
13:02 jeffdavis I'm inclined to think that we should treat 710 $ab as an author unless otherwise indicated.  But I'm happy to accept that that should be a Sitka-specific thing, not a general Evergreen thing.
13:03 dbs I'm inclined to continue to think that would be a mistake
13:04 dbs Simple enough to run a script that adds $4 aut to all of your 710s that don't otherwise have $4 or $e if you want to treat them that way
13:07 jeffdavis Well, I see a difference between "assume 710 should be treated as an author for discoverability purposes" and "assert that 710's are authors unless otherwise indicated in the record itself"
13:09 jeffdavis and I still need to run this by our folks with more tech services experience

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