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IRC log for #evergreen, 2014-10-15

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All times shown according to the server's local time.

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05:33 pinesol_green Incoming from qatests: Test Success - http://testing.evergreen-ils.org/~live/test.html <http://testing.evergreen-ils.org/~live/test.html>
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09:54 kmlussier Good morning #evergreen!
10:02 bshum Oh man, I remember https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/1018011
10:02 pinesol_green Launchpad bug 1018011 in Evergreen "Incorrect copy status caused by reshelving process colliding with item checkout" (affected: 5, heat: 24) [Medium,Confirmed]
10:02 bshum It's the reason we're still only doing reshelving once nightly now.
10:02 bshum That's an old one
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10:04 RoganH I have a solution.  Abandon technology, go back to cards in the back of books.  :)
10:17 Bmagic haha
10:17 bshum RoganH: I remember going to start library school because I "hated computers" and wanted to "work with books"
10:18 bshum So there are days :D
10:19 Bmagic bshum: looking at the reshelving code, I see that it's a simple update query. The pg planner selects all of the affected rows and then goes through them. When the select returns tons, the loop can take many seconds if not minutes, durning that time, one of the selected items could be checked out
10:20 Bmagic bshum: I was thinking that the solution could be simple: perform the select in perl limit 1, update, select the next one. Instead of letting the DB do it
10:21 dbs < berick> kmlussier: i've been using this one lately, which is my script, but fully automated:  http://git.evergreen-ils.org/?p=work​ing/random.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/hea​ds/collab/phasefx/wheezy_installer
10:21 kmlussier dbs: Thanks! I added the link to the OPW page yesterday. I think.
10:22 berick yeah, that's the one I told kmlussier to use
10:22 berick 'tis the easiest
10:27 dbs Heh, sorry, accidental paste
10:27 dbs berick: does that set up websockets et al for webby dev too?
10:28 * dbs still isn't used to the integrated button/clickpad on new thinkpads :/
10:28 berick dbs: not yet
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11:00 bshum dbwells: In the past, did you just copy the version-upgrade scripts into the necessary branches to make point releases?
11:00 bshum I'm thinking through the process. Probably won't get to it till much, much later though.
11:02 bshum For 2.7.1, I think I need to grab the 2.6-2.7.0 script into rel_2_7 and then issue a new make_release to get 2.7.0-2.7.1
11:02 eeevil Bmagic: it's not quite so simple as moving the reshelving outside the db.  it would use orders of magnitude more CPU (and ram and network bandwidth), and take longer still.  but, unless there are literal robots scooting around the library reshelving items the moment they are checked in, I'm not sure that there's really a point in running reshelving more than once in a 24 hour period
11:03 Bmagic eeevil: so the solution is to run the reshelver during a "less active time" (at night) ?
11:03 bshum berick: I think you mentioned something about the web client and make_release last time. Some flag I need to use to compile it so that it's part of the generated tarball?
11:04 berick bshum: yeah, it's in the LP.  lemme find it..
11:05 eeevil Bmagic: yes. it was always meant to be an off-hours batch process. running it constantly was not what it was designed for.  but still, do you have a situation where books are really reshelved constantly and immediately throughout the day? that's the real question
11:05 berick https://bugs.launchpad.net/evergreen/+bug/1350350
11:05 pinesol_green Launchpad bug 1350350 in Evergreen "browser client build/install process improvements" (affected: 1, heat: 8) [Undecided,New]
11:05 eeevil because, if so, then a development-based solution might be warranted. but, if not, then ... probably not
11:06 berick bshum: -c, but you also need to do the 4 additional steps in advance (if you haven't already)
11:07 kmlussier eeevil: We have lots of libraries, particularly our smaller ones, that reshelve books very quickly.
11:07 bshum berick++ # thanks! I'll poke at it some and see where it leads me.
11:08 eeevil kmlussier: like a "more pages than patrons" situation? ;)  [reads back ... actually not trying to be snarky there... sorry if it sounds like that]
11:09 eeevil kmlussier: so, in those cases, does it cause a lot of wasted time for patrons or staff when the item status isn't flipped quickly?
11:09 kmlussier eeevil: No, it didn't sound snarky at all.
11:10 hopkinsju Without a formal survey I can't say, but in our implementation discussions and through working help desk issues I'm pretty sure that many, many of our libraries do reshelving throughout the day.
11:10 kmlussier tspindler may have more details, but I know there are some libraries (maybe just a few)  that prefer not to have a reshelving status at all. I don't know if it causes wasted time, but maybe a bit of confusion?
11:10 bshum Do I check the cart or the shelf? Or the book drop? Or the back room?
11:11 hopkinsju I wouldn't think they had books reshelved in less than (and again, I'm just guessing here) 2 hours, but I think many of our libraries would complain if their books weren't available for 24 hours.
11:11 kmlussier If it's in the book drop, I don't imagine it would have been scanned and put into reshelving yet. ;)
11:11 eeevil bshum: I'd always check the shelf first, but I understand what you mean. my point is, does it /actually/ cause a problem, as opposed to /could/ it (because, yes, it certainly /could/)
11:12 bshum kmlussier: well, maybe not if there's automated material handlers involved.
11:12 bshum But I digress.
11:12 eeevil hopkinsju: the reshelving status is the moral equiv of "Available" ... there is no functional difference between them for, say, filtering in the opac or hold targetting
11:13 eeevil hopkinsju: so, the items /are/ "Available", they just say "but you might have to check the cart if it's not on the shelf"
11:13 tsbere I suppose if you don't want it to say "Reshelving" you could just go edit the label to say "Available". Then you get two numeric statuses with the same label. :P
11:13 bshum Fwiw, we changed the name of that status to "Recently returned" and then generally promised 24 hour turnover to make them "available"
11:13 eeevil tsbere: indeed. some have done that, I think
11:14 hopkinsju eeevil: From my perspective I do agree, but the libraries may not. Having said what I just did - I think a full half our libraries do not have a setting for reshelving interval and so are already on the 24h cycle.
11:14 bshum So I often feel it's a matter of interpretation.
11:14 hopkinsju I agree bshum
11:15 eeevil hopkinsju: what I mean is, the label is the only difference.  they can disagree with the label, but they can't disagree with the functional fact -- it's the same other than the label
11:15 eeevil and, as tsbere mentioned, they can change the label, certainly
11:16 hopkinsju eeevil: I completely agree with you that functionally the item is available. I think the question that the status helps answer is "should I bother going to check the shelves for this item?"
11:17 hopkinsju And I also agree that a label change may be the easiest solution. We will have to pitch the options to our libraries I think.
11:17 eeevil but(!), I can imagine a few things that don't try to misuse the existing code (because, see: LP bugs ... ;) ) and would help in these situations
11:17 eeevil 1) A/T reactor to flip the status. that's basically a bite-size bug for anyone familiar with A/T
11:17 hopkinsju "Reshelving" says to me "It's not on the shelf" whereas "Recently returned" says "Maybe check the shelf?"
11:18 jeff unless you're going to have pages scan books at the point in time when they are placed on the shelf, you're going to need to approximate the phase between those two states.
11:18 bshum Plausible denial. "I have no recollection, Senator."
11:18 eeevil 2) a cron'd process that uses MultiSession to implement a map-reduce status-flipper that targets specific libraries (which is exactly what A/T does, but you could skip the overhead of the A/T events infrastructure if you want to write more new code)
11:19 kmlussier I guess my question is why bother having the OU setting to set a reshelving interval if most Evergreen sites are going to need to fall back on the 24-hour reshelving interval anyway?
11:19 hopkinsju kmlussier++
11:19 hopkinsju kmlussier: Maybe someone thought there weren't enough settings?
11:19 kmlussier It's like a carrot that gets dangled in front of a new Evergreen site and then gets snatched away.
11:19 eeevil kmlussier: the intent of the setting was to allow /longer/ reshelving times
11:19 eeevil not short :)
11:19 hopkinsju haha
11:20 kmlussier eeevil: Heh. I didn't realize there were libraries that took longer than 24 horus to reshelve. :D
11:20 eeevil many moons ago, some PINES libraries would reshelve on Mon/Wed/Fri
11:20 eeevil or, they were only open a few days a week
11:20 eeevil (think: st. simon's island)
11:21 eeevil and they reshelved weekly or so
11:21 jeff when open, books go from "checked in" to "back on the shelf" pretty quickly at most/all of our locations. i know other libraries that is not the case for reasons unknown to me. we had a library once talk about how they reduced time from checkin to shelf to "only two days".
11:21 jeff so yes, some libraries take >24h to reshelve
11:21 kmlussier Maybe the description for the setting should say "2 days" "1 week" instead of "1 day" "6 hours."
11:21 eeevil anyway. there was a method to the madness. and the batch reshelver is not a good tool for mid-day flipping. so, if we need mid-day, we need something new
11:25 kmlussier eeevil: Thanks for the background on the setting. It's helpful.
11:25 eeevil good! :) (and I agree on the description change)
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11:28 tsbere Looking at the reshelving complete code, I think the "fix" for allowing it to run mid-day and not screw things up may actually be a single line of code. <_< Not sure how to *test* it though.
11:29 hopkinsju tsbere: Can you put your idea into a paste? We may be able to help test it.
11:31 tsbere hopkinsju: I was thinking just drop it into a working branch you could cherry-pick from.
11:31 tsbere (and attaching said branch to the launchpad bug)
11:32 Bmagic tsbere: sounds good to me
11:33 hopkinsju Great! tsbere++
11:34 hopkinsju eeevil++
11:37 tsbere Bmagic/hopkinsju/anyone else that cares: https://bugs.launchpad.net/eve​rgreen/+bug/1018011/comments/5
11:37 pinesol_green Launchpad bug 1018011 in Evergreen "Incorrect copy status caused by reshelving process colliding with item checkout" (affected: 5, heat: 24) [Medium,Confirmed]
11:38 Bmagic tsbere: aha! that does seem like it could work
11:39 Bmagic making the update statement check the status upon update
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11:41 eeevil transaction isolation would have to be increased to serializable for that to be The(tm) fix. but, depending on the plan generated, it's possible it could make the error less likely to happen
11:41 eeevil certainly worth a try for folks hitting the issue a lot
11:42 eeevil but, beware, in the case where it "fixes" things, it will very likely also lengthen the time write-locks are held on specific copies
11:43 tsbere eeevil: I am not entirely sure it will make things lock longer, but I could be wrong. The majority of the "wait" time on that script appears to be the subselect, and I didn't make that a "FOR UPDATE" select that creates locks. Once the select returns the updates themselves are going to lock either way...
11:44 tsbere (and said lack of locking on the subselect is one reason why the problem exists, I think)
11:47 eeevil tsbere: the subselect can be run as a nested loop, with updates happening during the whole time.  If Pg thinks that it will not be Abe to filter many rows with the new clause, then exactly that may happen.  All depends on stats and settings
11:48 eeevil Able. Autocorrect...
11:50 * tsbere watched locks with and without the status = 7 checks and didn't see any noticable difference in them, but didn't exactly do an overly complete job of watching either and wasn't on a production-level system data-wise
11:51 dbwells bshum: I would typically branch rel_2_x_x from rel_2_x, do the release stuff, then forward-port the upgrade file back to rel_2_x and master (eventually).  Then all the scripts are already in rel_2_x for the next point release.  Does that answer your question?
11:53 eeevil My bigger point is that the current reshelver has an intended purpose, and IMO we should consider that when looking for a solution that is outside that original intent. I'm 100% for code reuse, but I think this might be stretching it, in this specific case... But, testing will tell
11:55 tsbere eeevil: I am all for "new code for the new intent" or even "more efficient/targeted code for this intent" (only doing short-term reshelving when open, for example) - I am also all for calling it a bug that the reshelving complete code can, regardless of when or how often it is run, change the status of something *not* in reshelving at update time.
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12:05 eeevil fair enough. in practice, of course, it /only/ happens during open hours, but yes, it's a fair point
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12:32 yboston hopkinsju+++ for offering to host sandboxes
12:33 hopkinsju Glad to be a part of something so successful!
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13:01 gmcharlt Evergreen web team meeting starting... NOW!
13:01 gmcharlt #startmeeting Evergreen web team meeting, 15 October 2014
13:01 pinesol_green Meeting started Wed Oct 15 13:01:16 2014 US/Eastern.  The chair is gmcharlt. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
13:01 pinesol_green Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
13:01 pinesol_green The meeting name has been set to 'evergreen_web_team_meeting__15_october_2014'
13:01 gmcharlt #info Agenda is http://wiki.evergreen-ils.org/doku.php​?id=webteam:meetings:agenda:2014-10-15
13:01 gmcharlt #topic Introductions
13:01 kmlussier #info kmlussier is Kathy Lussier, MassLNC
13:01 gmcharlt #info Galen Charlton, ESI
13:02 RoganH #info Rogan Hamby, SCLENDS
13:02 kmlussier Could be a quiet meeting
13:02 gmcharlt bshum sent his apologies
13:03 gmcharlt #topic Action Items From Previous meetings
13:03 gmcharlt I think it's been a quiet past couple months, but to go them...
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13:03 gmcharlt kmlussier: any news on gather pages from previous conferences?
13:04 kmlussier I've got nothing
13:05 kmlussier Sorry, I promise I'll try for next month.
13:05 gmcharlt no problem
13:05 gmcharlt #action (carry-over) kmlussier to create pages with handouts, schedule, logo etc. from the previous conference (as material is/becomes available)
13:06 gmcharlt #info The WP Job Manager plugin is now available on the main website
13:07 kmlussier gmcharlt++
13:07 gmcharlt at the moment, the submission form is available at http://evergreen-ils.org/post-a-job/
13:07 RoganH gmcharlt++
13:07 kmlussier gmcharlt: Where will the listing show up?
13:07 gmcharlt RoganH: I recalled that we discussed this the other day... do you want to put it through its paces a bit before we make an announcement?
13:08 RoganH Yeah, let me play with it for a couple of days.
13:08 gmcharlt kmlussier: very creatively... http://evergreen-ils.org/jobs/
13:08 RoganH I'll do some test posts, deletions, etc...
13:08 gmcharlt RoganH: it also exposes a jobs dashboard
13:08 gmcharlt http://evergreen-ils.org/job-dashboard/
13:08 kmlussier When you've run it through its paces, I would like to share the link with OPW. As OPW sponsors, I think we get a benefit of having our jobs page listed on their site.
13:08 gmcharlt great
13:10 gmcharlt RoganH: and there are also settings available via the admin interface
13:10 RoganH gmcharlt: I'm looking at those now.
13:10 gmcharlt ok, so one of the related action items was putting out a call for somebody to curate the job listsings
13:11 RoganH I had offered to do that last time.
13:11 RoganH I think the action item got made before I chimed in.
13:11 gmcharlt ah, OK
13:11 kmlussier Yes, I was just looking at the log. RoganH is correct.
13:11 gmcharlt then accept this shiny new ball
13:11 RoganH shiny ball received
13:11 gmcharlt RoganH++
13:12 kmlussier RoganH++
13:12 gmcharlt so, noting a couple action items for myself
13:12 gmcharlt #action (carry-over) gmcharlt will coordinate/assist with dbs to move the planet
13:12 gmcharlt #action gmcharlt with work with DIG to get a test VM for doc-building set up
13:13 kmlussier gmcharlt++
13:13 RoganH gmcharlt++
13:13 gmcharlt next up, the FAQs...
13:13 gmcharlt phasefx: anything to report?
13:15 gmcharlt #action gmcharlt will ping phasefx about the FAQs
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13:15 gmcharlt #action (carry-over) gdunbar will proceed with the redesign of the downloads page
13:15 kmlussier Does graced need help with that?
13:16 gmcharlt if you're offerring ... you know where to find her ;)
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13:16 gmcharlt also, tuits are tight at the moment
13:16 kmlussier I'm offering and will follow up with Grace.
13:16 gmcharlt kmlussier++
13:17 gmcharlt #action gmcharlt will follow up with ericar re libraries roster and LP instructions page
13:18 gmcharlt #info Child theme is in place
13:18 gmcharlt #action gmcharlt will tweak the "learn more" buttons shortly
13:18 gmcharlt and bshum mentioned that he has some tweaks he wants to do
13:19 gmcharlt #action (carry-over) gmcharlt will coordinate with the EOB regarding the trademark policy page
13:19 gmcharlt and, I believe that covers all of the past action items
13:19 gmcharlt #topic New business
13:20 gmcharlt so, now that EG2015 is confirmed, I'll ping Buzzy again about starting the conference web pages
13:20 kmlussier gmcharlt: I'll be working with the conference team on their web site too.
13:21 gmcharlt great
13:21 gmcharlt and to clarify, planning of EG2015 is still in progress
13:22 gmcharlt RoganH: kmlussier: any other new business to bring up?
13:23 RoganH Not really.  At some point I'd like to revisit the Evergreen location listing pages and do some new things with it but I don't have the bandwidth right now.
13:23 kmlussier I sent an e-mail last month about my revised Getting Started page.
13:24 RoganH kmlussier: I thought it looked good.
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13:24 kmlussier So if it looks good to everyone else, I could use it to replace the current Getting Started page. I just haven't had the tuits yet.
13:25 kmlussier I think RoganH was the only person who gave feedback.
13:25 kmlussier There are also a couple of other items I would like to add, but they're not necessary before making the page live.
13:25 gmcharlt kmlussier: +1 to your going for it when you get the time
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13:25 RoganH +1
13:26 gmcharlt #action kmlussier will apply the updates she's suggested to the Getting Started page
13:27 kmlussier Actually, Getting Involved page. Sorry, I'm a little distracted today. http://evergreen-ils.org/involvement/
13:27 gmcharlt no problems
13:30 gmcharlt OK, looking at the website tasks spreadsheet, I think we've mostly discussed all of the current ones
13:30 gmcharlt bshum is still poking at the IRC logs
13:31 gmcharlt any other topics to discuss today?
13:32 RoganH Nope, not from me.
13:32 kmlussier Nothing from me.
13:32 gmcharlt OK, thanks everybody!
13:32 gmcharlt #endmeeting
13:32 pinesol_green Meeting ended Wed Oct 15 13:32:51 2014 US/Eastern.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
13:32 pinesol_green Minutes:        http://evergreen-ils.org/meetings/evergr​een/2014/evergreen.2014-10-15-13.01.html
13:32 pinesol_green Minutes (text): http://evergreen-ils.org/meetings/evergr​een/2014/evergreen.2014-10-15-13.01.txt
13:32 pinesol_green Log:            http://evergreen-ils.org/meetings/evergree​n/2014/evergreen.2014-10-15-13.01.log.html
13:35 kmlussier gmcharlt / RoganH: How does the "Get Involved" menu look now? I put a bunch of the links that previously displayed there as a submenu under communications.
13:37 RoganH kmlussier: like the mailing list and irc links?
13:37 kmlussier Yes, exactly. If it was something that the communications page links to, then I put it under communications rather than having them all stay at the same level.
13:38 RoganH For me they're acting as popups when I mouse over the drop down option.
13:38 RoganH I think it's convenient.
13:45 kmlussier RoganH: Yes, that's what it's doing for me too. Anyway, I'm happy to change it back to the old way if people don't find it convenient, but it made sense to me when I was moving "Communicate" down from being the main landing page.
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13:53 gmcharlt kmlussier: looks good to me
13:53 kmlussier Well, then, it sounds like a unanimous vote of approval from today's web team. :)
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15:19 gsams kmlussier: From an outside perspective, I'm really liking the direction the web team has taken the site.  In case you wanted some outside input.
15:20 gsams seeing where it came from and looking at it today, I really appreciate the effort that was put into it.
15:20 kmlussier gsams: Thanks! Most of the credit goes to gmcharlt and bshum. :)
15:21 gsams gmcharly++
15:21 gsams bshum++
15:21 gsams kmlussier++
15:21 gsams lol
15:21 gmcharlt I was going to say most of the credit belongs to bshum and kmlussier
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15:21 gsams gmcharlt++
15:21 kmlussier I like gmcharly. gmcharlt - you should change your nick. :)
15:23 gmcharlt heh
15:27 jeff in some default irc client configurations, gm<tab> completes to Good Morning
15:28 jeff so for a period of time i would address gmcharlt by typing gm<tab>^W^Wgmc<tab>, which is still one keystroke less than just typing "gmcharlt: "
15:29 * kmlussier chuckles
15:32 csharp good morning good morning good morning-uh
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15:36 Bmagic lol
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16:34 kmlussier berick: I like the way you sometimes utilized line numbers in the web client to provide a one-click way to access a patron record or more details on a bill. A nice little usability/workflow improvmenet.
16:40 berick kmlussier: oh, good.  when a grid has those links, the same action is accessible via dbl-click
16:41 kmlussier Nice!
16:41 jeff berick++
16:42 berick it's baked in to the grid, so we add those anywhere it makes sense to.
16:43 berick @later tell julialima sorry I missed you earlier.  feel free to ask questions in #evergreen, too.  lots of people around can help.
16:43 pinesol_green berick: The operation succeeded.
16:44 kmlussier I was thinking item status might be another good place to add it as we continue to tweak the web client. If you're in list view, it would bring you to the detail view of the item.
16:44 berick yeah, that seems like a clear win
16:44 jeff some things don't seem to load as i would expect if i open a new tab and paste the url. one example: https://webby.evergreencatalog.com/​eg/staff/circ/patron/1463/bill/1259
16:45 jeff hrm. worked on second attempt.
16:45 berick hep
16:45 berick er, yep
16:45 kmlussier jeff: I've found that it works on refresh.
16:45 kmlussier I was curious as to why it doesn't load on the first try.
16:45 berick i noticed that happening when prepping for my SEREC talk
16:45 berick i have a (vague) hunch that it's somehow related to using the compressed JS, since that never happened to me befure
16:45 berick before
16:46 berick somehow causing a timing issue
16:47 kmlussier I know we were aiming for feature parity here, but I wouldn't have been heartbroken if the "Transfer All Title Holds" had been "overlooked" in the move to the web client. :)
16:47 * berick recalls a recent conversation about that
16:47 kmlussier Yup. http://markmail.org/message/jsrbhxlwr2dshglv
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16:57 pinesol_green [evergreen|Bill Erickson] LP#1261486 Action/trigger aggregator script repairs - <http://git.evergreen-ils.org/?p=​Evergreen.git;a=commit;h=a7c3267>
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17:16 pinesol_green Incoming from qatests: Test Success - http://testing.evergreen-ils.org/~live/test.html <http://testing.evergreen-ils.org/~live/test.html>
17:45 gmcharlt dokuwiki updated to current stable version
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23:28 jeff gmcharlt++
23:29 bshum gmcharlt++
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