IRC log for #evergreen, 2014-03-27

All times shown according to the server's local time.

Time	Nick	Message
00:08		zxiiro joined #evergreen
00:11		fredp_ joined #evergreen
00:15		zerick joined #evergreen
00:54		alynn26 joined #evergreen
01:30		Polonel joined #evergreen
01:38		fredp_ joined #evergreen
05:05	pinesol_green	Incoming from qatests: Test Success - http://testing.evergreen-ils.org/~live/test.html <http://testing.evergreen-ils.org/~live/test.html>
05:15		remingtron_ joined #evergreen
05:15		dbwells_ joined #evergreen
05:29		flopaul joined #evergreen
05:32		flopaul joined #evergreen
06:19		artunit joined #evergreen
06:48		artunit joined #evergreen
07:27		flopaul joined #evergreen
07:47		collum joined #evergreen
08:16		akilsdonk joined #evergreen
08:30		Shae joined #evergreen
08:36		Dyrcona joined #evergreen
08:39		mmorgan joined #evergreen
09:03		Polonel joined #evergreen
09:12		dluch joined #evergreen
09:34		tspindler joined #evergreen
09:34		kmlussier joined #evergreen
09:39		Polonel joined #evergreen
09:42		tonyb_ohionet joined #evergreen
09:42	tonyb_ohionet	Morning...just setting up HexChat.
09:46		yboston joined #evergreen
09:50	tonyb_ohionet	Hi yboston! Hope you got a few new volunteers for DIG
09:54	yboston	tonyb_ohionet: we did do some training at the conferece, but you are the only one who is waiting for assignments
09:54	yboston	tonyb_ohionet: I did not get anybody else's contact info
09:55	yboston	tonyb_ohionet: I am still catching up at work, but I will send you an assignment soon. Preparing for the IRC training took more time that I expected
09:55	tonyb_ohionet	Gotcha....just let me know how I can help and I will do my best...really appreciate all your help with this!
09:56		denishpatel joined #evergreen
10:03		mrpeters joined #evergreen
10:05	Dyrcona	@wunder 01845
10:05	pinesol_green	Dyrcona: The current temperature in WB1CHU, Lawrence, Massachusetts is 28.9°F (10:05 AM EDT on March 27, 2014). Conditions: Clear. Humidity: 26%. Dew Point: -2.2°F. Windchill: 28.4°F. Pressure: 30.31 in 1026 hPa (Steady).
10:12		RoganH joined #evergreen
10:14	jl-	is the record id in datafield 010 here? http://paste.debian.net/89896/
10:15	Dyrcona	@marc 010
10:15	pinesol_green	Dyrcona: A unique number assigned to a MARC record by the Library of Congress. Valid MARC prefixes for LC control numbers are published in MARC 21 Format for Bibliographic Data. [a,b,z,8]
10:16	bshum	I might have suspected the 001 was the record ID. With 003 being the source name of the system?
10:17	bshum	But maybe that's a lie, like most MARC seems to be.
10:17	Dyrcona	@marc 001
10:17	pinesol_green	Dyrcona: The control number assigned by the organization creating, using, or distributing the record. The MARC code for the organization is contained in field 003 (Control Number Identifier). []
10:18	Dyrcona	I'm not sure that SQP is a "valid" MARC code as assumed by LoC. It maybe an org unit identifier from the legacy system.
10:19	Dyrcona	bshum: The MARC documentation isn't a "lie," per se. It's just that many catalogers and vendors ignore standards when producing records.
10:19		kbutler joined #evergreen
10:19	Dyrcona	Or, they use OCLC's slightly different ideas of what MARC should look like.
10:20	Dyrcona	Says the guy who routinely says, "Documentation lies." :)
10:20	Dyrcona	jl-: To summarize, the record id is more likely in the 001 as bshum suggests. However, I wouldn't rely on that.
10:21	bshum	Well, I meant to say that the MARC is a lie, meaning the record isn't formatted correctly.
10:21	* Dyrcona	stands corrected.
10:21	bshum	I've gotten "OCLC" bibs before where all the 001's were fake. So let's say merging was "fun"
10:21	Dyrcona	bshum: Did you check the 035?
10:21	bshum	Dyrcona: This was years ago and other people's problems.
10:22		rjackson-isl joined #evergreen
10:22	eeevil	Dyrcona: now /that/ would be a great t-shirt quote
10:22	eeevil	"did you check the 035?"
10:22	Dyrcona	jl-: If you'll be merging records from different sources, I'd assign the incoming MARC records new ids on import.
10:23	Dyrcona	jl-: If you set the right flag, the 001 and 003 will get moved to the 035.
10:25	Dyrcona	jl-: In your example record, it would look something like (SQP) 15788, similar to the existing 035 with the OCLC number.
10:26		fparks_ joined #evergreen
10:32	Dyrcona	jl-: A better option is to see if whoever is giving you the records can get the original database id in a 9xx field somewhere. Doesn't really matter which field so long as you know which one, like a 999$a or some such.
10:35	jl-	hmm
10:36	jl-	well they are from the same source, single collection (voyager)
10:37	Dyrcona	jl-: I thought you had 18 separate instances of Voyager. Is my understanding incorrect?
10:37	jl-	yes but I'm taking it one at a time
10:37	jl-	still on the first
10:37	jl-	;)
10:38	Dyrcona	OK. It is probably best to find if Voyager can export the record id to a given MARC field. That way you know with some certainty what it is.
10:38	Dyrcona	As bshum mentions, relying on the 001 is a bit iffy.
10:39	jl-	hmm ok, thanks
10:40	Dyrcona	001 is supposed to be unique per source (003), but I've seen at least one ILS that doesn't honor that.
10:40	Dyrcona	Yes, Horizon, I am looking at you!
10:40	jl-	on a side note, has anyone played around with ole by kuali and can comment on it?
10:41	Dyrcona	I haven't used it, but that won't stop me from commenting on it. :p
10:42	jl-	go ahead :)
10:42	jl-	it's 1.0 version
10:42	jl-	I don't like even looking at the 1.0 of anything
10:42	Dyrcona	Seriously, I don't know anything beyond the elevator pitch.
10:43	berick	great idea for encouraging involvement http://whatcanidoformozilla.org
10:44	kmlussier	berick: I like it!
10:45	Dyrcona	berick: It's like a game. We should use that as the basis for browse search. :)
10:45	kmlussier	We need a whatcanidoforevergreen.com
10:45	berick	Dyrcona: hah, that would be cool
10:45	Dyrcona	Gamification is the new thing, right? Or, was that last week?
10:46	RoganH	Drycona: that was last summer
10:46	Dyrcona	RoganH++
10:46	Dyrcona	Honestly, though, that is a neat interface for a wizard type thing, or Eliza.
10:47	RoganH	I like the idea of making something colorful, easy to engage with, nonthreatening to new folks.
10:48	* Dyrcona	reins in his snark before it gets away.
10:49	Dyrcona	Yes, I think the humorous options on the buttons are a big plus.
10:49	gmcharlt	maybe cast it as a Shadows & Vorlons thing
10:49	gmcharlt	"who are you?"
10:49	RoganH	Hey, that was my only team player comment for the day. I'm now more interested in finding chorizo tacos for lunch.
10:50	gmcharlt	"what do you want (to do)?"
10:50	Dyrcona	"I can't let you do that, Dave."
10:52	RoganH	Somehow it seems like there should be a redshirt joke mixed in there but I suspect it would offend whatever group of users it was tied to.
10:52	Dyrcona	Speaking of red shirts: You know the "most interesting man in the world meme," the Dos Equis guy? He played a red shirt who actually survived the episode.
10:52	jl-	Dyrcona: so what's the elevator pitch?
10:53	Dyrcona	jl-: It's on their website. I really can't comment on it.
10:53	RoganH	Dyrcona: I did not know that. I will file that away in my useless trivia though.
11:00		alynn26 joined #evergreen
11:05		caryar joined #evergreen
11:13	jl-	I converted my records.xml with yaz_marcdump and marc_cleanup, they're in utf8 now.. if I want to use the python script at the top to have 1 record per line, http://docs.evergreen-ils.org/dev/_migrating_your_bibliographic_records.html is it enough to change
11:13	jl-	reader = pymarc.MARCReader(open(input, 'rb'), to_unicode=True) to False because they already are utf 8 ?
11:15	Dyrcona	jl-: Should be.
11:20	jeff	Depending on the outcome of some other things, there's a possibility that I'll be hacking on SIPServer to add support for things like "the SIP client password can be something that is not the same as the ILS password" and "this SIP client gets these fields removed from responses", possibly other things like folding many patron profiles or stat cats into a smaller set"
11:20	jeff	I'll put word out on the list and in a bug if it looks like it'll be happening, but I wondered if anyone here had considered similar yet.
11:21	jeff	And I do wonder about Koha's forked SIPServer again... if it would be a Good Idea to evaluate what would be needed to move toward a single SIPServer.
11:22	jeff	(but that's a larger task, just came to mind again)
11:23	Dyrcona	jeff++
11:23	jeff	placed a hold last night in MeLCat, it's already in transit: Rumor mills : the social impact of rumor and legend / Gary Alan Fine, Véronique Campion-Vincent, Chip Heath, editors
11:23	jeff	i guess rumors travel fast? :-)
11:25	Dyrcona	:)
11:39	tsbere	jeff: Some of your possible changes could, in theory, be done without touching SIPServer itself, though obviously not the "remove these fields...." chunk
11:40	tsbere	jeff: Though on the "remove these fields" perhaps an "override these fields...." with an empty override being remove if not required to show up?
11:40	jeff	good point. i wasn't explicit in stating that, but I think I knew that. :-)
11:41	jeff	tsbere: yeah, since regardless of certain fields being required/optional, i'm sure some implementations would blow up on not seeing a field that "everyone else sends"
11:41	jeff	tsbere++
11:41	tsbere	jeff: Allowing an institution to say "this incoming message should be modified as such....", mainly for "you should never need to request summary info for patron info responses" in my head right now, could work too. ;)
11:42	tsbere	after all, why generate that info if we never hand it over ;)
11:42	jeff	yeah, I was thinking of not letting them ask for certain things -- ignoring those things when requested by that user, or modifying the input message... either way.
11:42	jeff	partially it's a matter of "what to do when the client asks for something that you are configured to not give them"
11:43	jeff	short-circuiting on the actual lookup of something detailed, but returning a standard-looking response for that inquiry with no actual items in it, perhaps.
11:45	tsbere	jeff: As for "different password", why not "different username" as well? If we throw in some form of workstation set/override one user could handle selfchecks in multiple locations just by tacking onto the end of the username with a location code or something.
11:45	jeff	tsbere: yeah, "different credentials"
11:46	jeff	and for workstation i think we were looking at a few options there. i'll check logs (I don't think ideas made it to bugs).
11:47	jeff	among the options were, I believe: attribute on the user in the sip config file, mapping or re-using raw value of one of the three location-related fields in SIP (after further investigation, I think I found one that we were treating oddly, and one that should be suitable for "workstation", and they might have been the same one)
11:49	tsbere	allowing for override at a user level regardless of anything the client sends seems like a good idea to me, if that hasn't already come up ;)
11:49	tsbere	(especially since some clients may never send the info)
11:49	jeff	yeah, "default or force"
11:49	jeff	and with force, i don't know if it would also be logical to have an "ignore"
11:50	tsbere	Force to empty would become "ignore", perhaps?
11:50		Sato`kun joined #evergreen
11:50	jeff	i.e., to continue with workstation-less behavior even if your existing sip clients are sending values that may or may not correspond with a workstation, but were never intended to be a workstation.
11:52	tsbere	jeff: Perhaps an "allow workstation from client" setting alongside "use this workstation" - Thus leaving the default "no workstation" behavior untouched?
11:53	tsbere	When both are set the configured one would be the fallback if none is provided by the client, with the allow one not set it is then forced
11:53	jeff	i don't know what would be best in the situation where you don't want a SIP client to send/receive a certain message pair at all -- like "this sip client can only use 63/64". i don't think there's anything existing that does that, though the <policy> config came to mind.
11:53	jeff	but i think <policy> is just used to set the fixed fields sent in the ACS Info message
11:53	jeff	and doesn't actually prevent a "rogue" SIP client from trying to do one of those things.
11:54	jeff	i suppose if you want to forbid all but a certain set of SIP messages you might be okay with having the SIP server disconnect on receiving anything else.
11:55	jeff	quick re-scan of SIP2 document -- doesn't seem to address the matter.
11:55	jeff	i vaguely think SIP3 has provision for something like this.
11:57		Christineb joined #evergreen
11:58		rfrasur joined #evergreen
11:58		fparks joined #evergreen
11:59	rfrasur	yo my people
12:01	* bshum	waves at rfrasur
12:02	kmlussier	rfrasur: Hello!
12:02	gsams	Good morning from Texas everyone!
12:02	tonyb_ohionet	Hello from slowly warming up Ohio! :)
12:03	* rfrasur	waves back.
12:07	jeff	ah yes, SIP3 (at least, the draft that I have handy) defines message 00 -- Unsupported Message Response
12:07		jihpringle joined #evergreen
12:07	kmlussier	gsams, tonyb_ohionet: Good afternoon!
12:08	tonyb_ohionet	Hello! Looking forward to helping out with DIG! Good to see everyone at the conference again!
12:08	rfrasur	tonyb_ohionet++
12:08	kmlussier	tonyb_ohionet++ indeed
12:09	tonyb_ohionet	Thanks guys! Hope I know enough to help out!
12:09	kmlussier	tonyb_ohionet: Did I hear you were looking for some assignments? I have some doc needs outlined for the new features that came to 2.5. You might be able to find something there. http://evergreen-ils.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=evergreen-docs:2.5_needs
12:09	rfrasur	kmlussier++
12:09	kmlussier	We have some for 2.4 too. http://evergreen-ils.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=evergreen-docs:2.4_needs
12:10	kmlussier	Hmmm...but it looks like there isn't much low hanging fruit in the 2.4 docs.
12:10	tonyb_ohionet	Yeah, we're only on 2.4 for now...is there a public 2.5 server? I could maybe base docs on that?
12:19	yboston	tonyb_ohionet: I beleive this demo server is running some version of 2.5.x http://demo.evergreencatalog.com/eg/opac/home
12:19	alynn26	Demo is running 2.5.0.
12:21	remingtron	tonyb_ohionet: kmlussier: for the record, there's a new DIG todo page: http://evergreen-ils.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=evergreen-docs:todo
12:21	remingtron	it includes a link to the bitesize bugs on launchpad
12:21	kmlussier	remingtron++
12:21	tonyb_ohionet	gotcha...heading over to check it out...be right back!
12:23	tonyb_ohionet	Ok...looks like some stuff I could help out with...like adjusting font size in staff client...
12:23	tonyb_ohionet	anybody know of a staff client login to the demo server above?
12:24	remingtron	probably admin and demo123
12:24	tonyb_ohionet	On it...checking it out...
12:24	rfrasur	remingtron++ #how did you know my banking password?
12:25	* kmlussier	now wanders off to banking sites to see if she can find rfrasur's account. :)
12:26	gmcharlt	rfrasur++ # thanks for your generous donation to the Evergreen Project! ;)
12:26	rfrasur	muahahah. I've hidden all the public library salary in several offshore institutions and shell corporations. My wealth is secure!
12:26	rfrasur	gmcharlt++ #when I begin my life of crime in earnest, EG will be my first Robin Hood project.
12:27	rfrasur	hmm, I might have spent way too much time with way too many little kids this morning.
12:27	kmlussier	rfrasur: Public library salary? How much money have you hidden? $5?
12:27	rfrasur	kmlussier: it's classified.
12:28	phasefx	dewey decimal?
12:29	rfrasur	About. You'll find the amount somewhere in the general section of the DDC
12:29	kmlussier	332.024?
12:30	alynn26	000
12:30	rfrasur	alynn26++
12:33	rfrasur	Ooooh, the DDC for profanity is 179.5. That needs to be used for something somewhere in life outside of libraries. I wonder if specific words have extended classifications.
12:33	tonyb_ohionet	Ok...logged in to demo server...have the staff client up and running...I'll take this offlist and contact yboston about working on the bugs documentation...if that's ok...thanks guys!
12:34	alynn26	Your welcome. Have fun.
12:34	rfrasur	tonyb_ohionet: You're awesome. Thank YOU.
12:34	Dyrcona	tonyb_ohionet: If you're practicing IRC try having a private chat with yboston.
12:34	rfrasur	ahh, Dyrcona++ #good point
12:35	tonyb_ohionet	thanks! I'll try the private chat...using hexchat...gotta figure out how it works...
12:35	Dyrcona	tonyb_ohionet: You can usually start one by typing /msg yboston followed by a first line of text
12:35	remingtron	tonyb_ohionet: looks like hexchat wants you to right-click a user's name
12:35	Dyrcona	or that. :)
12:36	gsams	Dyrcona++
12:36	gsams	was just about to recommend that
12:36	tonyb_ohionet	thanks everyone!
12:40	kmlussier	tonyb_ohionet++ #Thank you!
12:41		tonyb_ohionet joined #evergreen
12:41		bwicksall joined #evergreen
12:42		tonyb_ohionet joined #evergreen
12:45		lstjohn joined #evergreen
12:48		lstjohn left #evergreen
12:58	* rfrasur	counted
12:58	* rfrasur	met with 288 kids this morning.
13:02	kmlussier	afterl++ # Cocktails in IRC
13:04	jihpringle	goes with yesterday's cheesecake
13:06	rfrasur	jihpringle++
13:06	kmlussier	Cheesecake cocktails
13:06	rfrasur	Hmm....that could be good, right?
13:06	kmlussier	Apprently these exist. I just found a recipe for a blueberry cheesecake martini.
13:06	rfrasur	oh my
13:10	* rfrasur	would definitely try it.
13:10	Dyrcona	There are bartender bots for IRC. I suppose supybot has a plugin, but I've not checked.
13:11	rfrasur	What does a bartender bot do?
13:11	Dyrcona	You ask it for a drink, and there is some text representing it sliding the drink to you down a bar.
13:12	rfrasur	oh, hm. Seems less than satisfying.
13:12	Dyrcona	And, my water cup is empty.... :)
13:13	kmlussier	Oh, I think we need a bartender bot. bshum?
13:13	rfrasur	I'm trying to decide if I actually want to attempt to stay in the library for the family game night or just give up and go home.
13:13	kmlussier	Do they have something similar that will make pastries for us?
13:13	rfrasur	hmm..."want" being very relative
13:16	rfrasur	jeff: I got a nice email from Ann Arbor that sounded really positive.
13:17		bmills joined #evergreen
13:24	* bshum	just got to the airport, slowly heading home from Code4Lib.
13:25	bshum	I know the plugin in question. It's in the Code4Lib repo of supybot plugins.
13:28	jeff	rfrasur: great!
13:30		mbcraw joined #evergreen
13:35	afterl	bshum: safe travels
13:36	rfrasur	bshum: Hope you have a safe and stress freeish trip home.
13:41	rfrasur	It's apparent, that I could continually spend money on web presence with no end in site. Of course, it always comes down to money. Do you go with the cheap thing (or free) that kinda works and looks alright or do you pay to have something that's perfect(ish) and blends seamlessly with existing stuff?
13:42	jl-	bshum: home as in georgia?
13:46		mjingle joined #evergreen
13:47	jcamins	rfrasur: I guess it depends how many people are using the website, and what the bounce rate is on the new thing you're thinking about integrating.
13:47	yboston	quick questions: can someone give me a one or two sentene defintion for pinsolgreen? (needed it for presentation)
13:47	rfrasur	Well, it's not actually for our existing website. It'd be for a new collaborative area that I'd kinda want to LOOK like our website.
13:47	rfrasur	It's kinda like a concierge bot, yboston
13:48	rfrasur	Just like a concierge can answer certain questions and do certain things, so can pinesol_green
13:48		terranm joined #evergreen
13:48	jcamins	rfrasur: so the new thing hasn't been made available using the free, ugly thing.
13:48	jcamins	*?
13:48	yboston	is this how we pull marc info and bug info?
13:48	yboston	on iRC?
13:48	Dyrcona	yboston: It's a program that can interpret certain IRC messages and respond to them. It also keeps track of karma, etc.
13:48	kmlussier	@marc 650
13:48	pinesol_green	kmlussier: A subject added entry in which the entry element is a topical term. (Repeatable) [a,b,c,d,e,v,x,y,z,2,3,4,6,8]
13:49		jwoodard joined #evergreen
13:49	kmlussier	Oh, sorry. I thought you were asking how we do it.
13:49	yboston	I had use some commonds, and supected it was pinesol
13:49	rfrasur	jcamins: No. We're in the process of evaluating what exactly we want, need and can put up with.
13:49	yboston	are those commands documented anywere
13:49	yboston	?
13:49	Dyrcona	@help
13:49	pinesol_green	Dyrcona: (help [<plugin>] [<command>]) -- This command gives a useful description of what <command> does. <plugin> is only necessary if the command is in more than one plugin.
13:49	Dyrcona	@list
13:49	pinesol_green	Dyrcona: Admin, Anagram, Assorted2, Blame, Bugtracker, Channel, ChannelLogger, Config, Dunno, Encyclopedia, Games, Git, Herald, Insult, Karma, Later, LoveHate, MARC, Math, MeetBot, Misc, Note, Owner, Praise, Quote, RSS, Reply, Seen, Status, Time, Todo, Twitter, User, and Weather
13:49	Dyrcona	@help anagram
13:50	pinesol_green	Dyrcona: Error: There is no command "anagram".
13:50	Dyrcona	@list anagram
13:50	pinesol_green	Dyrcona: ana and hussein
13:50	Dyrcona	@help ana
13:50	pinesol_green	Dyrcona: (ana ana) -- generate an anagram
13:50	rfrasur	@help hussein
13:50	pinesol_green	rfrasur: hussein Hussein-ify your anagram!
13:50	rfrasur	good grief
13:50		pams joined #evergreen
13:50	jcamins	rfrasur: I guess you don't want to hear "a focus group of actual users/usability test with a mockup of the cheap version of the site might help."
13:51	kmlussier	yboston: I didn't document too many commands in the quick start guide because I didn't want to overwhelm newbies. But I think it would be nice to have a page that documents all of the commands we can use.
13:51	Dyrcona	@loves
13:51	pinesol_green	Dyrcona loves git; Tina Dico; you anyway; scripted sign off; sed; Monique Ortiz; and OpenBSD
13:51	rfrasur	jcamins: no. No, I don't, but it might come to that. But...maybe not.
13:51	jcamins	rfrasur: in that case I will try to avoid my soapbox.
13:51	* rfrasur	wants an IT department
13:52	* jcamins	trips over soapbox, ends up standing on top of it.
13:52	jcamins	If you don't ask, you'll just be guessing, and that's a waste of your time!
13:52	* jcamins	gets off soapbox sheepishly.
13:52	rfrasur	fwiw, I know. You just asked what I WANTED. Not what I know needs to happen.
13:52	kmlussier	rfrasur: A simple usability test can be something simple to implement.
13:52	jcamins	lol
13:52	jcamins	That's true.
13:52	rfrasur	^
13:53		mdriscoll joined #evergreen
13:53	jcamins	rfrasur: actually, I have an idea.
13:53	jcamins	(PMing)
13:53	yboston	thaks for the info, I wanted to be sure
13:53	rfrasur	k
13:57		cmorgan joined #evergreen
13:59	* kmlussier	waves to mdriscoll and cmorgan
13:59	* cmorgan	waves to kmlussier
14:00	* mdriscoll	waives back to kmlussier
14:00		elainehardy joined #evergreen
14:00		ddale joined #evergreen
14:00	yboston	Heads up, the IRC practice time is starting!
14:01	afterl	woo hoo!
14:01	kmlussier	Welcome elainehardy and ddale!
14:01	eeevil	YBOSTON: IS IT OK TO TYPE IN ALL CAPS!!!!!???
14:01	yboston	Welcome everyone
14:01	elainehardy	Thanks
14:01		kimr joined #evergreen
14:01	* eeevil	steps away, having made his one bad joke
14:01	ddale	Thanks!
14:01	yboston	My name is Yamil Surez from Berklee College of Music in Boston.
14:01	afterl	eeevil: YOU'RE FUNNY
14:01	yboston	oops… SuArez
14:02	rfrasur	eeevil: nice.
14:02	yboston	I met a bunch of you just last week.
14:02	ddale	I am Dawn Dale with GPLS
14:02	yboston	To get started, have a look at this longer version of my IRC presentation: http://goo.gl/w3zml2
14:02	rfrasur	afterl: you're also funny
14:02	ddale	I was in Boston last week but I can't say whether or not we met.
14:02	ldwhalen	This is Liam Whalen in British Columbia
14:02	yboston	Why don't we start introducing ourselves. You can just say your system name and state, or what ever you want.
14:03	bmills	Hello, I'm Brent Mills with Sage in Oregon. It was great meeting everyone at the conference!
14:03		caryar joined #evergreen
14:03	tonyb_ohionet	Hello everyone! Tony Bandy from OHIONET (COOL)
14:03	elainehardy	Elaine Hardy GPLS/PINES
14:03	afterl	hi brent!
14:03	alynn26	This is Lynn Floyd, Anderson County Library, SCLENDS
14:03	mdriscoll	I'm Martha Driscoll from NOBLE is Massachusetts
14:03	ddale	Hi, Dawn Dale, Atlanta Georgia
14:03	kimr	Hello, I'm Kim Robbins from Middlesex Community College in MA
14:03	terranm	I'm Terran McCanna with Georgia PINES
14:03	terranm	Hi Brent!
14:03	mceraso	Hi everyone! I'm Melissa Ceraso with Bibliomation
14:03	afterl	This is Amy Terlaga of Bibliomation
14:03	cmorgan	Christine Morgan from NOBLE
14:03	kmlussier	I'm Kathy Lussier from MassLNC
14:03	* Dyrcona	is Jason Stephenson of the Merrimack Valley Library Consortium.
14:03	mmorgan	Hi, I'm Michele Morgan from NOBLE (North of Boston Library Exchange)
14:04	ddale	Amy, you inspired me to get more involved.
14:04	afterl	I did?
14:04	kmlussier	afterl++
14:04	pams	Pam Smith from Howe Library in Hanover, NH
14:04	* rfrasur	is Ruth Frasur from Hagerstown-Jefferson Township Library which is part of Evergreen Indiana.
14:04	terranm	afterl++
14:04	rfrasur	afterl++
14:04	afterl	aw, shucks
14:04	* phasefx	is Jason Etheridge, Equinox
14:04	caryar	ICarol Yarrison from Biblioomation
14:05	rfrasur	Wow! Welcome to all the new people!
14:05	jl-	rfrasur in PA?
14:06	yboston	While folks introduce themselves, I recommend you have a look at the 5 slides of the presentation, up to
14:06	afterl	so I have to say I only know one tricky command in IRC
14:06	yboston	"How IRC is used by EG community"
14:06	bmills	hi terranm and afterl !
14:06	* ldwhalen	wonders if he needs to qualify the location of British Columbia?
14:06	yboston	http://goo.gl/w3zml2 - slides
14:06	rfrasur	ldwhalen, it's in Europe...right?
14:06	terranm	yboston: are you trying to get us to pay attention?
14:06	yboston	key word is "trying"
14:06	rfrasur	jl-: nope, in Indiana
14:06	alynn26	teranm I think so.
14:06	afterl	IRC chaos - it's fun
14:07	* dbwells	has an IRC nick devoid of mystery
14:07	terranm	yboston++ for trying
14:07	rfrasur	oh...pardon yboston. apologies :-\|
14:07	ldwhalen	rfrasur: There is some great European food here.
14:07	rfrasur	ldwhalen: That's no lie.
14:07	ddale	I haven't tried to keep up in a chat room in many years. I am a lot older now so this should be fun.
14:07	* rfrasur	loves B.C.
14:07	ldwhalen	rfrasur: And that is no question.
14:07	jl-	towns having the same name everywhere has always confused me, can't we just use unique ID's
14:08	* ldwhalen	is just starting to learn about BC
14:08		zookeeny joined #evergreen
14:08	yboston	Who in here is using IRC for the first time?
14:08		bmills joined #evergreen
14:08	ddale	I am.
14:08	kimr	Me!
14:09	pams	I am
14:09	mdriscoll	Me too.
14:09	rfrasur	ddale++ #first karma
14:09	terranm	I used to use it in the early 90s...
14:09	rfrasur	kimr++
14:09	rfrasur	pams++
14:09	phasefx	@karma ddale
14:09	pinesol_green	phasefx: Karma for "ddale" has been increased 1 time and decreased 0 times for a total karma of 1.
14:09	rfrasur	mdriscoll++
14:09	cmorgan	Me!
14:09	jl-	terranm: probably on efnet back then?
14:09	rfrasur	cmorgan++
14:09	terranm	jl-: I don't even remember
14:10	afterl	yboston: good turnout, yes?
14:10		mllewellyn joined #evergreen
14:10	pams	rfrasur++
14:10	terranm	yboston: will you explain karma?
14:10	rfrasur	@karma phasefx
14:10	pinesol_green	rfrasur: Karma for "phasefx" has been increased 225 times and decreased 1 time for a total karma of 224.
14:10	yboston	for the newcomers, have a quick look at slides 17 - 21 in the presentation http://goo.gl/w3zml2
14:10		lstjohn joined #evergreen
14:10	elainehardy	I am using IRC for first time
14:10	rfrasur	elainehardy++
14:11	yboston	it will talk about things to avoid, LIKE TALKING IN ALL CAPS
14:11	yboston	also an introduction into "replying" to someone. so you can make it clear if you are writing to someone specifically
14:11	terranm	If anyone is looking for how to type a message using the web client, it's the bottom line on the screen that looks empty. There isn't any obvious visual indicator.
14:11	phasefx	dbwells: You're a Wells, mystery is implied
14:11	Dyrcona	ie-- It's karma can never be too low.
14:12	rfrasur	Dyrcona++ #just to be contrary
14:12	jl-	ie--
14:12	rfrasur	ie--
14:12	ldwhalen	MS--
14:12	yboston	for example, I want to reply to "terranm" for her tip I would write her nickname followed by a colon as the beguining of my message like so
14:13	lstjohn	I'm also giving IRC a whirl.
14:13	yboston	terranm: thanks for sharing that tip
14:13	jl-	my boss uses ie just to annoy me for compatibility
14:13	rfrasur	lstjohn++
14:13		schrader_ joined #evergreen
14:13	rfrasur	cottage cheese--
14:13	mbcraw	1st time user. attended conference last week. from NC
14:13	jl-	:)
14:13	rfrasur	hmm, cottage_cheese--
14:13	ldwhalen	kiefer++
14:13	rfrasur	ew
14:13	yboston	mbcraw: welcome aboard
14:13	kmlussier	I neat trick I didn't know about until fairly recently. If you start to type somebody's name, hit the tab key and it will autocomplete.
14:13	afterl	mbcraw++
14:13	rfrasur	mcbraw++
14:13	mmorgan	@karma ie
14:13	pinesol_green	mmorgan: Karma for "ie" has been increased 0 times and decreased 58 times for a total karma of -58.
14:13	alynn26	cottage_cheese++
14:14	yboston	kmlussier: that is a great tip. not sure if it works on a web browser, but it works on IRC software
14:14	* rfrasur	eyes alynn26
14:14	lstjohn	rfrasur: you've started a cottage cheese discussion
14:14	jl-	aged_blue++
14:14	ddale	kmlussier: thanks for that tip!
14:14	kmlussier	yboston: Yes, it works in the web browser.
14:14	phasefx	kmlussier: and if it doesn't pick the right name, pressing tab multiple times will usually cycle through other names
14:14	yboston	kmlussier: very cool
14:14	mdriscoll	kmlussier: neat trick
14:14	bmills	kmlussier: thanks!
14:14	alynn26	kmlussier++
14:14	ldwhalen	milk quota++
14:14	yboston	BTW, if you are just arriving to this practice chat....
14:14	yboston	here are the logs IRC, click on todays date and scroll to the bottom to see what you missed ....
14:14	afterl	kmlussier: it works! very cool!
14:14	yboston	http://irc.evergreen-ils.org/evergreen
14:14	yboston	Here is the IRC presentation link
14:14	yboston	http://goo.gl/w3zml2
14:14	yboston	Here is a who's who list of EG community folks that have listed themselves for easy identification...
14:14	yboston	http://evergreen-ils.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=community:irc_channel
14:14	rfrasur	I swear, I have never tried to start a cottage cheese discussion unless it involved a mutual agreement among friends that cottage cheese is gross.
14:15	kmlussier	I encourage everyone to add themselves to that list. I don't think it gets updated frequently.
14:15	terranm	@karma terranm
14:15	pinesol_green	terranm: Karma for "terranm" has been increased 3 times and decreased 0 times for a total karma of 3.
14:15	rfrasur	kmlussier: They'll need wiki credentials.
14:15		OhioJoe joined #evergreen
14:15	kmlussier	Or, if you don't have a wiki account, I'll be happy to add you.
14:15	rfrasur	kmlussier++
14:15	yboston	kmlussier: I just added myself to the who's who yesterday
14:16	afterl	I'm lost, where are we vis a vis the cheese discussion?
14:16	rfrasur	cheese is good. cottage cheese is spoiled milk.
14:16	* rfrasur	grins
14:16	ldwhalen	kmlussier: can you add an account for me to the Wiki? username: ldw
14:16	terranm	afterl: all_the_cheeses++
14:16	yboston	can we postpone the cheese discussion for now
14:16	rfrasur	yboston: of course
14:16	yboston	I want to have newcomers a chance to practice
14:16	afterl	yboston: sorry, will cease
14:16	yboston	thanks
14:17	* alynn26	added me to the list
14:17	mmorgan	100 people in the room!
14:17	yboston	I would love to see the newcomers to practice replying to someone
14:17	OhioJoe	greetings one and all
14:17	kmlussier	ldwhalen: ldw or ldwhalen?
14:17	* kmlussier	is so confused.
14:17	ldwhalen	kmlussier: ldw please
14:17	elainehardy	yboston: OK
14:17	kmlussier	Gotcha
14:17	tonyb_ohionet	Hi OhioJoe++
14:17	rfrasur	OhioJoe++ #wlecome
14:17	rfrasur	hmm, and welcome
14:17	caryar	kmlussier: can you add an account for me to the wiki?
14:18	caryar	kmlussier: that was Carol from Bibliomation
14:19	bmills	kmlussier: could i also get a wiki account? username: bmills
14:19	alynn26	kmlussier: While you are editing, can you fix my spelling
14:19	mdriscoll	kimr: Hi Kim, having fun?
14:19	mbcraw	guess i don't get the point of chat. i never see anything important being discussed.
14:19	yboston	BTW, I got a question about IRC "karma" , I see it as a way to give a virutal "apt in the back"
14:19	lstjohn	kmlussier: my reply
14:19	rfrasur	mbcraw: This is unusual. Generally, this is a place to ask questions, get some feedback on ideas, etc.
14:20	yboston	you write out a persons nickname and add twoo "+" like this rfrasur++
14:20	rfrasur	mbcraw: Right now it's more of a free for all...but again, this is unusual.
14:20	yboston	but it has to be at the beguining of the line
14:20	yboston	rfrasur++
14:20	lstjohn	yboston++ for hosting this
14:20	Dyrcona	We also use the channel for developer and other community meetings.
14:20	phasefx	elainehardy: jfyi, I pushed a working branch for that Clear Pending button, but havne't opened a LP report or anything yet
14:20	ldwhalen	yboston++
14:20	cmorgan	mmorgan++
14:20	rfrasur	yboston++ #for many reasons
14:20	jl-	mbcraw: it can be about being well-resourced, many experts can be found in irc
14:20	kimr	mdriscoll: yes!
14:20	kmlussier	I can add people to the wiki page, but I can't set up wiki accounts.
14:20	mmorgan	cmorgan++
14:20	mceraso	yboston++
14:21	afterl	you can also have private conversations
14:21	elainehardy	phasefx: Thanks so much!
14:21	OhioJoe	yboston++ for hosting this as well
14:21	mdriscoll	cmorgan++
14:21	OhioJoe	although I think I should have used a +1 there
14:21	afterl	kmlussier and I did a lot of conference planning on IRC
14:21	rfrasur	Dyrcona makes a great point. This is where nearly all the remote meetings take place. And afterl makes another great point.
14:21	elainehardy	phasefx: can be back port to 2.5?
14:22	yboston	as Dyrcona mentions, this Evergreen IRC "channel" is used for things like 1) developer collaboration 2) as a place to ask quick questions about Evergreen 3) to hold Evergreen community meetings like the documentation group, the web site group, etc
14:22	jihpringle	afterl: and put on an awesome conference
14:22	lstjohn	kmlussier: +++1 conference was stellar thanks for the planning
14:22	mbcraw	how do you know when a remote meeting is scheduled? do you get an email notice?
14:22	ddale	afterl: how do you have a private chat.
14:22	rangi	speaking of which Dyrcona, current tstate of play for teh NCIP stuff is it is in preliminary testing with MassCat .. but the NCIP/ILS/Evergreen.pm still needs to be written, and about 20 more handlers (ive covered all the ones for ILL) <-- useful stuff
14:22	rangi	also, I hate NCIP
14:22	afterl	jihpringle: thank you so much
14:22	rfrasur	mbcraw: many of the announcements go through the ils-general email list.
14:22	terranm	I do like IRC for meetings, but I'm not usually in here otherwise because I don't have the mental bandwidth with my other work
14:22	phasefx	elainehardy: yeah, I'd say so re: backporting
14:22	Dyrcona	rangi++
14:23	Dyrcona	@hate NCIP
14:23	pinesol_green	Dyrcona: The operation succeeded. Dyrcona hates NCIP.
14:23	jihpringle	mbcraw: most of the regular meeting times are posted here: http://evergreen-ils.org/communicate/committees/
14:23	afterl	ddale: how are you connecting to the IRC right now?
14:23	Dyrcona	rangi: I was going to start with the same handlers you've already created because those are all we need, too, for now.
14:23	yboston	mbcraw: most meeting are anounced on one or more EG mailing lists
14:23	mbcraw	this is like being in a room full of people all talking about something different. hard to follow
14:23	afterl	ddale: through web browser or some client?
14:24	ddale	afterl: firefox
14:24	Dyrcona	mbcraw: It usually is not quite this busy.
14:24	ddale	afterl: web browser
14:24	rangi	Dyrcona: yep, i think its probably all most situations would need
14:24	alynn26	mbcraw: it can be, sometime you have to back scroll to follow
14:24	terranm	mbcraw: yes, it's better during meetings when there is one topic at a time
14:24	yboston	yes, it is normally not this busy
14:24	afterl	ddale: hmm, I use a client called Pidgin. Wondering how you would connect to an individual your way. Some help from others?
14:24	rfrasur	mbcraw: one way to make it work a little better is to identify who you're talking with and then mention them. It pings them into the conversation. It's also a good(?) way to get someone's attention.
14:25	rfrasur	oooooh, Pidgin. old school :D
14:25	* Dyrcona	used Pidgin.
14:25	* kmlussier	uses pidgin
14:25	* rfrasur	used to.
14:25	Dyrcona	s/used/uses/
14:25	afterl	rfrasur: am I? What do others use?
14:25	* mdriscoll	uses pidgin
14:25	rangi	rfrasur: or new school as the case may be, i use irssi
14:25	lstjohn	phasefx: bug on holds shelf that I was trying to describe https://bugs.launchpad.net/evergreen/+bug/1167979
14:25	* mmorgan	uses pidgin too
14:25	kmlussier	But I would quickly move to quassel if we ever had a community quassel server.
14:25	pinesol_green	Launchpad bug 1167979 in Evergreen "Circulation > Clear Shelf-Expired Holds fails " (affected: 4, heat: 20) [Medium,Confirmed]
14:25	rfrasur	I dunno. I just know I used it ten years ago.
14:25	yboston	for some info on dedicated IRC software check out slides 24 and 25 of the presentation http://goo.gl/w3zml2
14:25	* phasefx	uses irssi and quassel
14:26	rfrasur	I use Quassel.
14:26	rangi	irssi + bip
14:26	mbcraw	so what's the proper way to get out of this chat?
14:26	* terranm	tried using pidgin for irc and found it annoying and went back to the web browser
14:26	Dyrcona	mbcraw: If you're on the web, you can just close the tab.
14:27	ddale	afterl: I will look at the ppt later. I prob should hold off on too many questions until I have time to do that.
14:27	rfrasur	mbcraw: or you can type / quit from a client (no space)
14:27	afterl	ddale: now you have me wondering. I will find out!
14:27	ldwhalen	afk
14:27	yboston	BTW, if you are just arriving to this practice chat....
14:27	yboston	here are the logs IRC, click on todays date and scroll to the bottom to see what you missed ....
14:27	yboston	http://irc.evergreen-ils.org/evergreen
14:27	mbcraw	thnx
14:27	yboston	Here is the IRC presentation link
14:27	yboston	http://goo.gl/w3zml2
14:27	yboston	Here is a who's who list of EG community folks that have listed themselves for easy identification...
14:27	yboston	http://evergreen-ils.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=community:irc_channel
14:27	rfrasur	mbcraw: or / leave if you just want to leave this channel but stay on the server.
14:28	terranm	ddale: I saw that you can type / msg username (no space after slash) to send a private message - I'll try it to you now
14:28		krvmga joined #evergreen
14:28	krvmga	ok, odd occurrence here.
14:28		lisek joined #evergreen
14:28	krvmga	(eg 2.4) the patron logs into her account and tries to place a hold.
14:28	yboston	one feature I did not cover in the IRC presentationwas "private messges"
14:29	krvmga	intermittently, there's a 500 error
14:29	krvmga	look at the server error logs and see
14:29	yboston	that is a way for you to have a secondary chat window or tab to chat with another person without being seen by others
14:29	rfrasur	krvmga: just so you know, the IRC practice is happening right now.
14:29	lisek	Sorry I'm late joining the conversation. Yamil, is there an easy way to quickly see people have been saying before you log on?
14:29	rfrasur	(but I want to know what you saw)
14:29	krvmga	oops, sorry, i'll come back later.
14:29	Dyrcona	krvmga: But, do continue.
14:30	rfrasur	krvmga: please do.
14:30	yboston	this is useful for privacy or as a convineince to other so that you don't get int he way of others
14:30	rfrasur	krvmga: continue, that is
14:30	yboston	the syntax is "/msg nickname" like /mg kmlussier Do you have a second to talk?
14:30	mmorgan	krvmga: It's a good example of the kind of stuff that goes on here.
14:30	phasefx	casual conversation aside, it's usually better to share questions and answers in public, so everyone benefits
14:30	schrader_	elainehardy - thanks for including scoped notes in the wishlist that came out of the cataloging session. Today I got a call from a college that wants to be able to do exactly that
14:30	rfrasur	phasefx++
14:30	yboston	but the /msg nickname part has to be the first thing you write
14:31	Dyrcona	I think krvmga is pasting something.... just a guess.
14:31	krvmga	insert or update on table "hold_request" violates foreign key constraint "hold_request_sms_carrier_fkey"#012DETAIL: Key (sms_carrier)=(0) is not present in table "sms_carrier".
14:31	yboston	lisek: here are the logs IRC, click on todays date and scroll to the bottom to see what you missed ....
14:31	yboston	http://irc.evergreen-ils.org/evergreen
14:31	krvmga	we can't figure out how this error is happening since there never was a "0" in the sms carrier table
14:32	rangi	yboston: i probably should add myself to that page on the wiki too eh?
14:32	kmlussier	rangi++
14:32	yboston	rangi: you will need to have a wiki account, which I can give to you; or I can write it in for you too
14:32	rfrasur	rangi++
14:33	Dyrcona	rangi: Is there a similar page for the koha channel? I should add myself there.
14:33	rangi	wiki account might be handy, i probably should write some stuff about ncip at some point
14:33	yboston	for those that have recently arrived, go ahead and introduce yourselves
14:33	rangi	yep there is
14:33	afterl	it would be good to get everyone on the wiki. I still don't know some people on here
14:33	terranm	Oh, I see the slash msg starts its own little tab at the top - I didn't see it at first
14:33	rangi	Dyrcona: http://wiki.koha-community.org/wiki/IRC_Regulars
14:34	* gmcharlt	was too slow! ;)
14:34	rangi	heh
14:34	* krvmga	scratches his head.
14:34	elainehardy	terranm:no tab
14:34	Dyrcona	krvmga: I've not seen that one before. You might want to see if you can check the patron's settings in the database.
14:34	lisek	Thanks, Yamil. I'll go catch up so I don't repeat questions that have already been asked.
14:34	afterl	gmcharlt!
14:34	mdriscoll	yboston: thanks for setting up the practice session.
14:34	Dyrcona	rangi: sweet as. :)
14:34	gmcharlt	afterl!
14:34	* mdriscoll	leaves to pick up kid at school
14:34	* rfrasur	shall be in another window.
14:35	krvmga	Dyrcona: did that. no sms carrier specified in the patron record. by rights, then, when she entered her phone number, the sms carrier should have defaulted to the first one in our list.
14:35	afterl	yboston: it's going well
14:35	rfrasur	A huge welcome to everyone that showed up today and more karma for yboston
14:35	rfrasur	yboston++
14:35	afterl	yboston++
14:35	krvmga	yboston++ # 'cause we like him :)
14:35	schrader_	yboston++
14:35	terranm	yboston++
14:35	yboston	gracias
14:35	cmorgan	yboston++
14:36	Dyrcona	krvmga: I wonder if the first entry is "selected" or not. If it isn't there may be a 0 or no value going to the back end.
14:36	kmlussier	yboston+ indeed
14:36		sciani joined #evergreen
14:36	Dyrcona	But I am just guessing.
14:36	krvmga	Dyrcona: this is an interesting avenue of investigation. i'll check.
14:36	tonyb_ohionet	yboston++
14:36	kmlussier	It's great to see so many new faces in her. I hope you all come back during quiet times too. I find it's the best way to keep up on what's happening with Evergreen.
14:36	ddale	afterl++
14:36	yboston	anyone having problesm with private messages/chats? let me know if you want me to start one with you? or if you want to send me one
14:36	kmlussier	@karma yboston
14:36	pinesol_green	kmlussier: Karma for "yboston" has been increased 174 times and decreased 0 times for a total karma of 174.
14:36	ddale	terranm++
14:37	gmcharlt	yboston++
14:37	cmorgan	kmlussier++
14:37		tonyb_ohionet left #evergreen
14:37	yboston	also, don;t forget to practice "replying" /addressing someone by writing their nickname followed by a colon
14:37	yboston	like this...
14:38	terranm	Does anyone have recommendations for the easiest way to access IRC via Android phone?
14:38	afterl	yboston: did kmlussier say there was some kind of IRC command guide?
14:38	yboston	afterl: thanks for the pcitures you sent me
14:38		tonyb_ohionet joined #evergreen
14:38	afterl	yboston: you're welcome. they were quite good.
14:39	yboston	On the Eg communcity website, ther is an IRC page, it has some help links -- http://evergreen-ils.org/communicate/irc/
14:39	kmlussier	afterl: There's a quick start guide http://wiki.evergreen-ils.org/doku.php?id=community:irc-quick-start. But it only has basic commands.
14:39	elainehardy	schrader_: Glad to be of help
14:39	yboston	I definetly recommend this IRC quickstart quide
14:39	afterl	kmlussier: okay, looks like I know those
14:40		terranmc joined #evergreen
14:40	yboston	BTW, there are two reason why I wanted to hold this practice time
14:40	ddale	yboston: thanks, I will definately look at that as well.
14:40		mdriscoll joined #evergreen
14:40	yboston	1) I want to increase participation in the community
14:40	yboston	2) At first I was terrified of going on IRC, so Iwanted to make it easier on others
14:40	lisek	yboston: Definitely over my head. Can't keep up with all the incoming lines and work the service desk at the same time. Hope you don't mind if I lurk. (Lise Keppler, Forsyth County NC)
14:41	ddale	lisek: I will be doing some lurking as well.
14:41	pams	yboston: thanks you've definitely helped me
14:41	yboston	you don't have to logged on all the time. Many folks just log on when they have a quick question
14:41		ethomsen_ joined #evergreen
14:41	yboston	or if the want to watch a meeting happen or even participate. Like the documentation meetings we have once a month
14:42	rfrasur	plug_for_DIG++
14:42	yboston	pams: I got your private message the other day, but I don't know who you are?
14:42	mmorgan	Can someone say a little about pinesol_green?
14:42	alynn26	terranm: there are several IRC apps available. I use one called AndroIRC
14:42	ddale	yboston: is an email sent out for meeting or do you just know about then?
14:42	kmlussier	lisek: I lurked for several months before I started fully participating. It's a good way to start.
14:42	rangi	irc is pretty much designed for lurking
14:43	lstjohn	didn't do that right, did I?
14:43	terranm	alynn26: thanks, that's the one I have installed
14:43	lisek	Will watch email for notices of DIG meetings on IRC, ditto reports and cataloging interest groups. Thanks for the encouragement, ddale and kmlussier!
14:43	afterl	colloquy is very good. I use it on my iPhone
14:43	rangi	its totally acceptable behaviour, because of my timezone, i lurk 90% of the time the rest of you are awake :)
14:43	pams	I went to your lightninig talk on IRC at the conference
14:43	yboston	ddale: great question, most meetings are anounced on the mailing lists. For example, I faciltate the DIG (documentation interest group) meetings. and I send an anouncement to at least the DIG list for upcoming meetings
14:44	rfrasur	I use AndroIRC on my phone...when I'm using my phone which isn't often.
14:44	* rfrasur	prefers to type.
14:44	yboston	BTW, if you are just arriving to this practice chat....
14:44	yboston	here are the logs IRC, click on todays date and scroll to the bottom to see what you missed ....
14:44	yboston	http://irc.evergreen-ils.org/evergreen
14:44	yboston	Here is the IRC presentation link
14:44	yboston	http://goo.gl/w3zml2
14:44	yboston	Here is a who's who list of EG community folks that have listed themselves for easy identification...
14:44	yboston	http://evergreen-ils.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=community:irc_channel
14:44	rangi	interesting fact, we just hit 104 people/bots in #evergreen which is a new record
14:44	terranm	yboston: when a name shows up in red, what does that mean?
14:45	yboston	terranm: I guess it depends on what you are using to conenct to IRC. Browser or dedicated software?
14:45	kmlussier	In answer to mmorgan's question about pinesol_green, it is the bot in our channel that performs some automated functions.
14:45	* kmlussier	isn't sure I'm the best person to explain pinesol_green
14:45	terranm	yboston: browser - I think it means the message is addressed to you
14:45	kmlussier	So if you want to look up a MARC tag, you can do something like:
14:45	kmlussier	@marc 650
14:45	pinesol_green	kmlussier: A subject added entry in which the entry element is a topical term. (Repeatable) [a,b,c,d,e,v,x,y,z,2,3,4,6,8]
14:45	yboston	kmlussier: thanks for answerring that question
14:45	kmlussier	pinesol_green does that for us.
14:45	pinesol_green	kmlussier: http://images.cryhavok.org/d/1291-1/Computer+Rage.gif
14:45	pinesol_green	kmlussier: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)
14:46	Dyrcona	It also spews random nonsense if it thinks you are talking to it.
14:46	kmlussier	Heh
14:46	Dyrcona	Well, not random, but still nonsense.
14:47	kmlussier	It also does some other useful things. So if I type bug 1297976, it will pull the relevant information from Launchpad.
14:47	pinesol_green	Launchpad bug 1297976 in Evergreen "Awesome box integration" (affected: 3, heat: 16) [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1297976
14:47	ddale	Thanks everyone! This was fun but I need to move on and get some work done. I will be lurking now that I know more about IRC.
14:47	OhioJoe	@marc 100
14:47	pinesol_green	OhioJoe: A personal name used as a main entry in a bibliographic record. [a,b,c,d,e,f,g,j,k,l,n,p,q,t,u,4,6,8]
14:47	terranm	kmlussier++ I didn't know that one!
14:47	afterl	ddale: bye!
14:48	bshum	@librarian
14:48	pinesol_green	bshum: Management:13, Cataloging:12, Acquisitions:14, Reference:15, Circulation:11, Systems:14, Research:15, Custodial:14
14:48	OhioJoe	that's a useful resource
14:48	* bshum	is on his first flight home, but waving "hi" to everyone before he takes off.
14:48	Dyrcona	The bot has some toys, too.
14:48	afterl	OhioJoe: any relation to BazookaJoe?
14:48	terranm	bshum: hi!
14:48	* ldwhalen	waves back at bshum
14:49	afterl	bshum: Hi!
14:49	terranm	What are the other bot toys?
14:49	* bshum	waves goodbye to dbs in the plane next to his
14:49	Dyrcona	You can get the weather.
14:49	OhioJoe	after1: not that I'm aware of.. though some days a bazooka would be useful...
14:49	Dyrcona	@wunder 01845
14:49	pinesol_green	Dyrcona: The current temperature in WB1CHU, Lawrence, Massachusetts is 42.1°F (2:49 PM EDT on March 27, 2014). Conditions: Clear. Humidity: 16%. Dew Point: -0.4°F. Windchill: 39.2°F. Pressure: 30.27 in 1025 hPa (Falling).
14:49	rfrasur	by the by, when launchpad bugs are pulled up, that's a good time to link out to them and see if they affect you. If they do, you can mark them as such.
14:49	rfrasur	@eightball
14:49	pinesol_green	rfrasur: It is possible.
14:49	terranm	@wunder 30083
14:49	pinesol_green	terranm: The current temperature in Oak Creek, Avondale Estates, Georgia is 63.0°F (2:46 PM EDT on March 27, 2014). Conditions: Partly Cloudy. Humidity: 24%. Dew Point: 24.8°F. Pressure: 30.29 in 1026 hPa (Falling).
14:50	jihpringle	rfrasur++
14:50		alexrex joined #evergreen
14:50	rfrasur	@dice
14:50	pinesol_green	rfrasur: (dice <dice>d<sides>) -- Rolls a die with <sides> number of sides <dice> times. For example, 2d6 will roll 2 six-sided dice; 10d10 will roll 10 ten-sided dice.
14:50	kmlussier	@roulette
14:50	pinesol_green	kmlussier: click
14:50	rfrasur	@dice 2d6
14:50	pinesol_green	rfrasur: 4 and 6
14:50		dbs_mob joined #evergreen
14:50	afterl	kmlussier: you're gutsy
14:50	berick	@ana why was six afraid of seven?
14:50	yboston	any other questiosns from the newcomers?
14:50	pinesol_green	berick: Sexy as dwarfish if on wave
14:50	dbs_mob	so many rookies on this plane!
14:51	rfrasur	kmlussier: that worked out well this time!
14:51	lstjohn	@wunder 30030
14:51	dbs_mob	berick++ # cancon!
14:51	pinesol_green	lstjohn: The current temperature in Clairemont Estates, Decatur, Georgia is 66.9°F (2:51 PM EDT on March 27, 2014). Conditions: Partly Cloudy. Humidity: 14%. Dew Point: 15.8°F. Pressure: 30.29 in 1026 hPa (Falling).
14:51	* kmlussier	waves to dbs_mob
14:51	Dyrcona	@hussein why was six afraid of seven
14:51	pinesol_green	Dyrcona: Anxious, wishy, dwarfish, safe
14:51	elainehardy	@wunder 30016
14:51	pinesol_green	elainehardy: The current temperature in Rocky Plains Weather Station, Covington, Georgia is 66.2°F (2:51 PM EDT on March 27, 2014). Conditions: Clear. Humidity: 16%. Dew Point: 19.4°F. Pressure: 30.27 in 1025 hPa (Steady).
14:52	dbs_mob	@google why was six afraid of seven
14:52	pinesol_green	dbs_mob: http://cat.evergreen-ils.org.meowbify.com/
14:52	phasefx	@dnd
14:52	pinesol_green	phasefx: strength:10 dexterity:9 constitution:11 intelligence:15 wisdom:17 charisma:13
14:52	yboston	Also, a quick plug for DIG (documentation interest group meetings). Our IRC meetings are ussually the first Thursday of the month at 2 PM EST
14:52	* dbs_mob	waves back
14:52	yboston	you can just come and lurk
14:52	ldwhalen	@dnd
14:52	pinesol_green	ldwhalen: strength:15 dexterity:14 constitution:12 intelligence:6 wisdom:14 charisma:12
14:52	berick	dbs_mob: wiki's OK there?
14:52	* berick	forgets
14:52	kmlussier	@sortinghat
14:52	pinesol_green	Hmm... kmlussier... Let me see now... RAVENCLAW!
14:52	berick	heh
14:53	dbs_mob	takeoff... bye
14:53	berick	adios dbs_mob
14:53	elainehardy	@sortinghat
14:53	pinesol_green	Hmm... elainehardy... Let me see now... HUFFLEPUFF!
14:53	lstjohn	@sortinghat
14:53	pinesol_green	Hmm... lstjohn... Let me see now... GRYFFINDOR!
14:53	terranm	@dnd
14:53	pinesol_green	terranm: strength:14 dexterity:14 constitution:14 intelligence:14 wisdom:10 charisma:15
14:53	terranm	@sortinghat
14:53	pinesol_green	Hmm... terranm... Let me see now... HUFFLEPUFF!
14:53	phasefx	you can also talk to the bot privately /msg pinesol_green @sortinghat
14:53	elainehardy	@dnd
14:53	pinesol_green	elainehardy: strength:9 dexterity:10 constitution:14 intelligence:5 wisdom:11 charisma:13
14:53	rfrasur	@sortinghat
14:53	pinesol_green	Hmm... rfrasur... Let me see now... RAVENCLAW!
14:53	rfrasur	hmm, I'm okay with that, I guess.
14:54	rfrasur	at least kmlussier is there with me.
14:54	terranm	As usual, my wisdom is low...
14:54	elainehardy	@dnd
14:54	pinesol_green	elainehardy: strength:13 dexterity:17 constitution:11 intelligence:11 wisdom:14 charisma:17
14:54	rfrasur	@librarian
14:54	pinesol_green	rfrasur: Management:10, Cataloging:10, Acquisitions:10, Reference:12, Circulation:14, Systems:13, Research:14, Custodial:10
14:54	kmlussier	rfrasur: There's that. Better than Slytherin.
14:54	lstjohn	@librarian
14:54	pinesol_green	lstjohn: Management:11, Cataloging:12, Acquisitions:16, Reference:13, Circulation:17, Systems:12, Research:13, Custodial:15
14:54	elainehardy	@librarian
14:54	pinesol_green	elainehardy: Management:8, Cataloging:8, Acquisitions:9, Reference:10, Circulation:11, Systems:10, Research:15, Custodial:11
14:54	* phasefx	forsees some online D&D games in his future (wishful thinking)
14:54	rfrasur	kmlussier: Yep, although then we could be bad and no one would be surprised.
14:55	yboston	we are coming to the end of the IRC practice time slot. Any final questions?
14:55	elainehardy	@librarian
14:55	pinesol_green	elainehardy: Management:12, Cataloging:13, Acquisitions:13, Reference:10, Circulation:8, Systems:6, Research:15, Custodial:11
14:55	yboston	and remember the channel will go back to its "original scheduled programing" at 3 PM EST
14:55	elainehardy	@archaeologist
14:55	pinesol_green	elainehardy: have you tried local mean solar time for the named city as the reference point?
14:55	yboston	you can all stick around as long as you want
14:55	caryar	yboston: thank you for this time, it was helpful
14:56	* cmorgan	waves goodbye. Meeting time. Thanks yboston!
14:56	phasefx	it's less chaotic in practice
14:56	jihpringle	yboston++
14:56	elainehardy	Yboston: Very helpful!
14:56	Dyrcona	elainehardy: That's another thing the bot does. If you give it a command it doesn't recognize, it say something random.
14:56	rfrasur	yboston++ #again, thaks
14:56	afterl	yboston: what a wonderful idea. thanks for hosting this!
14:56	rfrasur	thanks even
14:56	elainehardy	Dyrcona: hoping for stats as archaeologist too
14:56	yboston	muchas gracias
14:56	terranm	@librarian
14:56	pinesol_green	terranm: Management:17, Cataloging:11, Acquisitions:16, Reference:13, Circulation:15, Systems:16, Research:16, Custodial:12
14:56	yboston	I will schedule another practice time next week for those that could not make ti today
14:57	lstjohn	yboston ++ thanks, IRC is still scary but that's content not use.
14:57	kmlussier	yboston++ Thanks for pulling this together and trying to keep us all focused!
14:57	pams	yboston++
14:57	Dyrcona	yboston++
14:57	terranm	Thank you yboston! yboston++
14:57	ldwhalen	yboston: this was very helpful. I will be able to follow things here now that I have an understanding of some of the bot's commands.
14:57	rfrasur	lstjohn: use it for what you need it for. And lurking will make you more comfortable, I'm sure.
14:57	afterl	see everyone on here later ....
14:57	mceraso	yboston++
14:57	rfrasur	see ya afterl
14:57	terranm	@love
14:57	kmlussier	I added some people to the Who's Who wiki - http://evergreen-ils.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=community:irc_channel
14:57	pinesol_green	terranm: (love <thing>) -- Declare your love for <thing>
14:58	terranm	@love cheese
14:58	pinesol_green	terranm: The operation succeeded. terranm loves cheese.
14:58	elainehardy	goodbye
14:58	kmlussier	If you want to be there and I didn't get you, let me know. Or if you want to get a wiki account, I think yboston can set it up.
14:58	Dyrcona	@loves bshum
14:58	pinesol_green	bshum loves Evergreen; chocolate chip cookies; git; tpac; yaous; rain; piwik; lunch; Fridays; cake; pizza; Star Trek; pgadmin; donuts; autoupdate; quassel; and kvm
14:58	Dyrcona	@loves
14:58	pinesol_green	Dyrcona loves git; Tina Dico; you anyway; scripted sign off; sed; Monique Ortiz; and OpenBSD
14:58	terranm	@loves terranm
14:58	kmlussier	@love Evergreeners
14:58	pinesol_green	terranm loves cheese
14:58	pinesol_green	kmlussier: The operation succeeded. kmlussier loves Evergreeners.
14:58	rfrasur	@hate cottage_cheese
14:58	pinesol_green	rfrasur: The operation succeeded. rfrasur hates cottage_cheese.
14:58	rfrasur	@hates
14:58	kmlussier	@loves
14:58	pinesol_green	rfrasur hates MARC; mouthy teens; State of Indiana Department of Workforce Development online interface; stupid state bureaucracy; incessant adult responsibility; Internet Explorer; IE; little blue e; void; Microsoft; Adobe; Disney; Disney a lot; oxford university press hardcovers; facets; reports; governmental_busywork; and cottage_cheese
14:58	pinesol_green	kmlussier loves parts; YAOUS; Fridays; clam chowder; coffee; new fanged email thing; quassel; magic eightball; trivia; and Evergreeners
14:59	phasefx	@loves
14:59	pinesol_green	phasefx loves code; ping pong; and juggling sticks
14:59	terranm	@love Evergreen
14:59	pinesol_green	terranm: The operation succeeded. terranm loves Evergreen.
14:59	kmlussier	phasefx: I have to believe you love more things than that.
14:59	terranm	@loves terranm
14:59	pinesol_green	terranm loves cheese; and Evergreen
14:59	kmlussier	@hates
14:59	pinesol_green	kmlussier hates git; Launchpad search; Internet Explorer; and snow
14:59	rfrasur	@loves
14:59	pinesol_green	rfrasur loves google; pinesol_green; overcast days; Evergreen; Ze Internetz!; chocolate; Fridays; minions; Google Drive; codabar; explaining Evergreen stuff to member libraries; phasers; sonic screwdrivers; quantum physics; meaningful_policy; and round_tuits
15:00	* rfrasur	is a moron.
15:00	* rfrasur	continues working on staff schedule after shaking head.
15:00	* Dyrcona	is just reading EDI documentation, what little there is.
15:00	mrpeters	hate git! how could you hate git!
15:01	kmlussier	mrpeters: git hates me, so I hate it back.
15:01	mrpeters	we have a nice overcast day today, eh?
15:01	mrpeters	:(
15:01	terranm	kmlussier +1
15:01	rfrasur	Yep, I'm pretty pleased with the weather today.
15:01	mrpeters	my kinda early spring day too
15:02	mrpeters	but I need sun and 65 for golf sunday!
15:02	jcamins	mrpeters: barely above freezing?
15:02	* jcamins	is not pleased with the weather today.
15:02	mrpeters	56 here
15:02	jcamins	Lucky!
15:02	jcamins	@wunder 11375
15:02	pinesol_green	jcamins: The current temperature in Glendale, Glendale, New York is 38.7°F (2:58 PM EDT on March 27, 2014). Conditions: Mostly Cloudy. Humidity: 32%. Dew Point: 10.4°F. Windchill: 32.0°F. Pressure: 30.33 in 1027 hPa (Falling).
15:02	rfrasur	@wunder 47346
15:02	pinesol_green	rfrasur: The current temperature in Hagerstown, Hagerstown, Indiana is 44.2°F (3:02 PM EDT on March 27, 2014). Conditions: Overcast. Humidity: 57%. Dew Point: 30.2°F. Windchill: 39.2°F. Pressure: 29.89 in 1012 hPa (Falling).
15:03	mrpeters	@wunder 46060
15:03	pinesol_green	mrpeters: The current temperature in Downtown Noblesville, Noblesville, Indiana is 46.2°F (3:03 PM EDT on March 27, 2014). Conditions: Overcast. Humidity: 51%. Dew Point: 28.4°F. Windchill: 42.8°F. Pressure: 29.86 in 1011 hPa (Falling).
15:03	mrpeters	lies
15:03	mrpeters	my thermostat outside says 56
15:03	mrpeters	at least thats what the HVAC reads outside
15:03	rfrasur	that's all that really matters
15:13		Wyuli joined #evergreen
15:24	jihpringle	Dyrcona: staff client side EDI documentation or behind the scenes fetcher/puller documentation?
15:24	Dyrcona	jihpringle: The latter, mostly, but I'm just looking into setting it up.
15:26	yboston	bmills: are you free to talk? I need some info from you
15:27	jihpringle	I'm in the process of updating our docs (Sitka) with how to set up EDI accounts on the staff client side (getting the SANs in the right places and such)
15:27	kmlussier	jihpringle: That sounds useful. I may want to look at those after Dyrcona does his behind the scenes magic.
15:28	jihpringle	ldwhalen has been doing the behind the scenes magic for us
15:28		DPearl joined #evergreen
15:29	jihpringle	kmlussier: I was just looking at the offical docs for EDI staff client set up and if it works for you I'll update the offical docs at the same time as I do ours
15:30	kmlussier	OK, sounds good! :)
15:30	kmlussier	jihpringle++
15:34	bmills	yboston: thanks for the account setup!
15:35	bmills	yboston++
15:37		tonyb_ohionet joined #evergreen
15:38	berick	dbwells: you around? like to get some UI feedback from you when you get a sec
15:39	dbwells	berick: sure, ask away
15:39	berick	kmlussier too if you got a sec..
15:39	berick	https://bill-dev2.esilibrary.com/eg/staff/test/autogrid (admin / demo123)
15:39	berick	working on grid column width and sort priorities
15:39	berick	drop down menu along top right, Configure Columns
15:40	berick	adds a new inline config option
15:40	berick	(which is much better than a popup, because you can see what you're doing)
15:40	berick	anyway, the display is not all there yet, needs to be more well.. visually documented or some such
15:40	kmlussier	Nice
15:40	berick	but curious about suggestions, plusses, minuses
15:41	kmlussier	Is there a way users can resize the columns?
15:41	berick	kmlussier: the left/right links in the config row
15:41	dbwells	berick: I can't seem to login, for some reason
15:42	berick	dbwells: chrome?
15:42	dbwells	tried FF and Chrome
15:42	kmlussier	Oh, I see.
15:42	berick	hm, chrome should be fine. FF is in flux at the moment
15:42	berick	kmlussier: by your question, were you assuming drag/drop resize?
15:43	dbwells	berick: My version of Chrome is quite old, so maybe that's the issue
15:43	kmlussier	Yes, I wanted to click on one of the separators in the table headers to resize the column.
15:43	berick	dbwells: hm, maybe, were you able to log in before?
15:44	kmlussier	Going to "Configure Columns" is better than not being able to resize at all, but I don't think I'll be the only person who tries dragging to resize.
15:44	berick	kmlussier: of course. haven't rule out drag/drop, that's still an option.
15:44	* kmlussier	wonders if terranm is around to take a look too.
15:44	dbwells	berick: before, as in ever? Yes, certainly
15:45	berick	dbwells: odd. websockets and shared workers (the most modern parts) have been supported since version 31
15:45	berick	dbwells: any js errors?
15:45	kmlussier	berick: I like the column picker though. I prefer it to what we have in Dojo now. And the clicking to sort is very intuitive.
15:46	berick	kmlussier: good, ok, thanks.
15:46	dbwells	berick: I'll just install the latest Chrome. I use FF as my regular browser.
15:46	kmlussier	I would be curious to see what it looks like in those interfaces that have very, very long column pickers.
15:46	berick	yeah, column header click is the "quick sort" options. sort priority values are the "sort first ascending, sort second descending, etc." more advanced bits
15:47	berick	like the dojo one (for now, anyway) positive sorts asc; negative sorts desc.
15:47	berick	kmlussier: i could mock something up
15:47	kmlussier	Ooh! I hadn't even noticed the advanced sorting.
15:47	jihpringle	I like the configure columns option, though I agree with kmlussier that people will try to drag to resize
15:47	dbwells	berick: new Chrome works fine
15:47	berick	dbwells: cool
15:48	berick	jihpringle: cool, thanks
15:48	eeevil	berick: in your test, are you doing server-side sorting? (and are you paging ... which is the driver for my question)
15:48	jihpringle	berick: would the column widths stay or would you have to redo them everytime you go into the interface?
15:49	berick	jihpringle: they would eventually persist
15:49	berick	so, you would jsut set them once
15:49	jl-	berick: chrome works for me, 24.4 not
15:49	jl-	*ff 24.4
15:49	berick	eeevil: yes to server-side sorting via flattener.
15:49	jihpringle	if they persist than I think drag to resize is less important, but would be nice if possible
15:50	berick	eeevil: paging is hard-coded on at this point. no controls exist yet.
15:50	berick	be it scrolling or linking.. still to be done
15:50	kmlussier	berick: Will we also have the ability to filter like we currently can in some AutoGrids.
15:50	kmlussier	?
15:50	eeevil	scrolling++ # IMO
15:50	berick	jl-: nod
15:51	berick	kmlussier: that's the plan, yes, for certain data sets
15:51	jl-	I like the minimalism tho, I wouldn't add gradients
15:51	berick	the hope is this grid can be used for flat data sets (like the conify stuff) and for dynamic stuff, like circ, etc.
15:51	berick	"circ" being the list of item out, or holds lists, etc.
15:52	kmlussier	berick: When you just said scrolling, do you mean you aren't going to be doing any paging for these AutoGrids?
15:52	berick	some of those will support filtering, some may not
15:52	berick	kmlussier: the scroll option would be paging via scrolling
15:52	berick	so, you'd see like 15, then as you scroll down, more would appear
15:52	berick	depending on the size of the screen, etc.
15:52	berick	that bit's still undecided..
15:53	berick	not sure what the general pref is.. eeevil prefers scrolling
15:53	berick	i don't have a strong pref either way, but I could see scrolling being better on mobile
15:53	kmlussier	It's hard to say. But, overall, I've heard a preference from our users that they prefer not to click to page. So I'm thinking it could be seen as a positive thing. But it would be good to get a lot of feedback on that.
15:54	berick	jl-: gradients, as in the odd/even row styling?
15:54	jl-	berick: gradients as in the default evergreen server interface
15:54	berick	kmlussier: well, in either case, we can make it keyboard controll-able, since this is such an important component
15:54	kmlussier	My big concern with the paging is that it always didn't work well together with filtering. So you would be able to filter the first screen of results, but then when you page to the second screen, the filtering is gone.
15:54	jl-	dark green to green
15:54	berick	e.g. alt-right-arrow or some such shrug
15:54	jl-	looks a bit outdated imo
15:55	jl-	I like the solid colors of your proposa
15:55	jl-	l
15:55	jihpringle	agreed, being able to filter the whole set instead of just the visible would be a big deal for our sites
15:56	berick	jl-: oooh ;) well, you'll have to take that up w/ the community at large, I think. I hesitate to (by myself, anyway) invent a new color palette :)
15:57	berick	kmlussier: jihpringle: filtering will affect the whole data set
15:57	kmlussier	berick: Music to my ears!
15:57	jihpringle	berick++
15:57	jeff	berick: if you haven't seen it already, this is one of the more interesting (purely from the UI -- haven't dug deeply into the code) implementations of "infinite scroll" I've seen lately: http://scrollsample.appspot.com/items
15:58	jeff	berick: there's also a blog post which references it -- focused a bit more on SEO than really matters for a 'staff' interface, and not a grid, but potentially useful tidbits within: http://googlewebmastercentral.blogspot.com/2014/02/infinite-scroll-search-friendly.html
15:58	berick	kmlussier: jihpringle: one point of clariifcation.. it will be possible to build UIs on this grid where filtering does not behave perfectly. there may be some existing code we have to use where that is the case. but global filtering / sorting will work out of the box
15:58	berick	we may have to retrofit some stuff, though
15:58	berick	as we can
15:59	berick	jeff: thanks!
16:00	* berick	notes there's an infinite scroll tool in the angular-ui toolkit, but havent' had a chance to poke it yet
16:01	berick	kmlussier: fairly long column picker : https://bill-dev2.esilibrary.com/eg/staff/circ/patron/17/holds
16:02	dbwells	berick: I'm not completely sure what you are after, but here are a few reactions I had when using this interface.
16:03	dbwells	berick: First, as I mentioned in passing at the conference, the XUL grids are essentially "fixed height", at least the way we use them.
16:03	kmlussier	Regarding the colors, I'm guessing they will be entirely customizable like they are with the catalog. Is that right? So if somebody didn't want to use the gradients, they don't have to.
16:03	dbwells	I think there are pros and cons to allowing the cells to wrap.
16:04	berick	kmlussier: yes, the css is templated like the catalog
16:04	jeff	hrm. the cmd-click behavior is as i would expect, and there's the check all / check none toggle, but there seems to be no support for click, then shift-click another item to select all between, inclusive.
16:04	dbwells	To my eye, it can hurt the scan-ability of the data, especially if you have some outlier row with a big blog of data.
16:04	berick	jeff: right, not yet
16:04	berick	pending
16:05	dbwells	On the other hand, if you allow cells to wrap, you often don't need to resize at all.
16:05	jeff	and that's because this is from scratch, not someone else's widget -- right?
16:05	berick	jeff: from scratch
16:05	berick	using flexbox
16:05	berick	as the main css driver
16:05	berick	well, display:flex, flex:n (where n defines the column widths)
16:06	kmlussier	berick: Thanks for the long column picker example. It seems like it's easy enough to navigate with mouse or keyboard.
16:06	dbwells	berick: Second (and related to the first), I'd say my #1 use of column resizing is to "peek" at some hidden data, not to change it permanently. I can see this interface as being workable for configuration, but it doesn't fit the "peek" behavior. That would require the dragable handles, I think.
16:07	berick	dbwells: yeah, i agree re: dragging. i'd we now have a consensus there
16:07	berick	s/i'd/i'd say/
16:07	berick	kmlussier: yeah, it seem usable to me
16:08	berick	dbwells: we could potentially make wrapping a toggle-able attribute on the grids
16:10	jeff	i can see some interfaces where you'd want it off (at least by default)
16:10	jeff	not sure if it belongs in the column picker (with a potentially-different default in some interfaces) or if it should remain up to the UI and not the user.
16:11	jeff	probably best to leave it to the user with a reasonable default unless there is some very special reason in some interfaces to have it "locked"
16:13	berick	yeah, as an occaisonal viewer of grid data, i like the idea of being able to toggle it myself
16:14	jl-	have a good night everyone
16:14		mjingle left #evergreen
16:14	kmlussier	jl-: Good night!
16:16	dbwells	berick: Nothing scientific, but just poking around my programs and my memories, I am having trouble finding a grid interface with a truly variable height. Not that we can't buck convention, but I'm inclined to follow norms until given substantial reasons to the contrary.
16:17	sseng	@MARC 856
16:17	pinesol_green	sseng: The information needed to locate and access an electronic resource. The field may be used in a bibliographic record for a resource when that resource or a subset of it is available electronically. In addition, it may be used to locate and access an electronic version of a non-electronic resource described in the bibliographic record or a related electronic resource. (Repeatable) (1 more message)
16:17	eeevil	dbwells: you mean scrollable fixed height grids, right? (plenty of those)
16:17	berick	dbwells: well, it's semi-scientific.. i think that's a reasonable conclusion
16:18	berick	so, my takeaway so far is: 1. drag/drop column widths. 2. fixed-height rows (maybe toggleable). 3. infinite scroll-based paging. 4. maybe kill the gradients at 2am when no one is looking
16:19	berick	eeevil: he means fixed height rows
16:20	eeevil	oh, rows, sorry
16:20	eeevil	right
16:20	berick	instead of the more table-esque variable height rows that are there now
16:20	eeevil	fixed height rows, yes, agreed
16:20	dbwells	glad you guys sorted that out, wasn't sure what was being asked of me :)
16:21	jihpringle	the ability to toggle to wrap text in places where long titles display would be handy (like the hold shelf browse), but other than that fixed height rows work for me
16:21	berick	here's another one, with scrolling on (but not paged yet) -- https://bill-dev2.esilibrary.com/eg/staff/test/autogrid2 -- and the template code: http://paste.lisp.org/display/141804
16:23	eeevil	some way to see the full content, but elipsis-truncated for long data (CSS!!! text-overflow:ellipsis)
16:23	berick	template code for the other, with explicit fields and (some) labels http://paste.lisp.org/display/141805
16:23	berick	eeevil++
16:24	berick	jihpringle: nod thanks
16:24	dbwells	berick: I think the "paged" scroll that jeff linked seemed like an interesting compromise. My main complaint with infinite scroll is the lack of wayfinding-type points to refer to. I can ofter remember something was "1/3rd of the way down page 7", but can get lost in large-ish infinite scroll situations.
16:25	eeevil	dbwells: row numbers would be my answer there ... but, I may be in the minority
16:25	berick	dbwells: i was wondering about that..
16:25	jcamins	dbwells: an alternative might be to number the rows, and use JS to update the URL every n rows.
16:26	berick	jcamins: you beat me to it :)
16:26	eeevil	or even click on the row number to add a url fragment
16:26	dbwells	jcamins: yeah, that's basically what jeff's example did, but in addtion, had an "index" to jump to certain spots.
16:26	eeevil	(toss #92 onto the url when you click on the "92" in row 92)
16:26	eeevil	and have <a>nchors on the line numbers
16:27	jeff	the github (and various mozilla/kernel.org tools before that, and others before that) "line number of code" method. :-)
16:27	jcamins	dbwells: yeah, I liked that, but if you don't want to use the additional space, or pre-computing pagination is problematic, row numbering is an option.
16:27	jeff	with infinite scroll, you'd have some handler that could see the url fragment and determine if it needed to load and scroll to that number, or just scroll to it, etc.
16:28	eeevil	jeff: right, zackly
16:28	jcamins	jeff: yup. Similar to what you do with tabs on a 1-page website.
16:29	jeff	and of course, there's "what are you trying to link to" -- row numbers will be quite variable, especially in a list that changes over time, or is re-ordered, etc... so maybe your rows have an id other than the number: grid of holds? the <a name="hold-44632">, etc.
16:29	jeff	of course, then you link to blah/holds#hold-99999999999999 and watch the infinite scroll try to get there...
16:29	jcamins	jeff: seems like that could result in some dramatic scrolling.
16:29	jcamins	Yeah, exactly.
16:30	jeff	so i don't know what the answer there is. maybe it's "don't link to an item in a list so much as link to the item details". shrug
16:30	* jcamins	blames keylag.
16:30	dbwells	I can work with row numbers. There is something about pages which engages the spatial parts of my brain in a useful way, but I'm adaptable :)
16:30	jeff	when your grids need EXPLAIN and you have to watch out for seq scans of an entire table over websockets... ;-)
16:31	jcamins	jeff: on the other hand, it might be relaxing.
16:31	eeevil	jeff: or we decree that the pre-fragment url is persistent, and the fragment just tells us how far down to look (given whatever state the data happens to be in) ... as a development guidline
16:31	jeff	but more seriously, if the link-to-hold-id method doesn't find it in X "pages", it could fall back to "hey, does this id even exist?" followed by bringing up just that item.
16:31	kmlussier	I like the example jeff shared with the page numbers.
16:32	eeevil	jeff: well, and we can make it smart so it fetches the surrounding page (and no more) and scrolling up fetches "back" pages of data
16:32	jcamins	eeevil: yeah, you could also have ?offset=whatever.
16:32	eeevil	give it 999999 and it fetches 999995-1000005 via limit/offset
16:32	eeevil	right
16:33	jcamins	The history API is pretty cool.
16:33	eeevil	and if there's no data... it ignores it and goes to the top
16:33	kmlussier	I do like the scrolled paging, but I also wonder if, when used with a production-level database, if there will be a lot of waiting for the next items to load.
16:33	jeff	i'm not sure how you'd do something that isn't ordered by id in that case. there might be a trick.
16:34	berick	jeff: most of the auto-grid'y UIs already sort by some column
16:34	eeevil	kmlussier: it'll be faster than the initial load of the first page of data
16:34	berick	and those are the only ones we can really do deep linking for anyway
16:34	eeevil	just "next page of content!" ... no re-drawing
16:34	kmlussier	eeevil: Ok. I'll take your word for it. For now. ;)
16:34	eeevil	kmlussier: for now is good enough ;)
16:35	jcamins	jeff: you'd link to the current page, then scroll to the ID. If it's not on that page, you might want to try back and forward, but it seems to me that would be a good way to DOS an Apache server.
16:35	eeevil	kmlussier: for now!
16:35	jeff	yeah. the thing you're sorting by might not be a unique id.
16:35	eeevil	(did you see that coming?)
16:35	kmlussier	Heh
16:36		tspindler left #evergreen
16:36	kmlussier	eeevil: No, I didn't see it coming. Too late in the day for me.
16:36	eeevil	kmlussier: neither did I, TBH
16:37	berick	fwiw, it would be neigh on trivial to start w/ page-based scrolling / linking and take it from there. it's not as precise as row-based, but may solve most problems very easily..
16:37	eeevil	berick: right ... fetch 10 instead of each one, you mean
16:37	berick	and since row-based is not necessarily precise anyway
16:38	eeevil	oh, nm
16:38	eeevil	you blasted right past my brain
16:38	berick	heh, i mean like this one http://scrollsample.appspot.com/items?page=5
16:39	eeevil	sure ... looking at it like that, row scrolling is just a page-size=1 case of page scrolling
16:39	* berick	also prefers "offset" to "page"
16:39	berick	eeevil: true
16:39	berick	well, but page-size=1 would result in very small grids
16:39	berick	but yeah
16:40	berick	point taken
16:40	eeevil	heh... oh, you mean not do infini-scroll + granular paging
16:40	eeevil	you mean actual click-y paging
16:40	eeevil	gotcha
16:40	berick	no, i mean infini-scroll
16:40	berick	just page based instead of row based
16:40	berick	which, as you pointed out, is really kind of the same thing
16:41	eeevil	well, you've gotta be able to scroll up, so ... right. chunky infini-scroll ;)
16:42	berick	yeah
16:43	berick	alright, so, i think the general idea is clear. chunked scrolling w/ some mechanism for jumping to page X (or row X)
16:44	berick	with, imo, bonus points for visual page delineation cues, as in the example
16:46	berick	thanks for the impromptu design meeting, everyone!
16:47	eeevil	berick++
16:48	dbwells	berick++
16:48	jeff	berick++
16:49	jihpringle	berick++
16:50	dbwells	berick: I also just looked at your second example, and even with longer data, the variable height rows aren't as bad as I thought they would be. Still, that's a small sample, so my general tendency toward convention stands :)
16:51	dbwells	berick: also, as random bug report you probably know about shift-click selection is turning everything blue.
16:52	kmlussier	berick++
16:52	berick	dbwells: fixed-height: https://bill-dev2.esilibrary.com/eg/staff/test/autogrid2
16:53	jeff	dbwells: i believe that's just the default browser behavior when shift-click isn't being trapped, which as berick noted earlier is simply because it hasn't been implemented yet. :-)
16:53	berick	dbwells: yeah, i was confused by that at first. does the same when you click then mouse over
16:54	jeff	as i look at the normalized title/author, what was the name or bug number for the "materialized better-than-simple record extracts" idea/work/branch?
16:54	berick	+1 to fixed height. much easier to track
16:55	berick	jeff: https://bugs.launchpad.net/evergreen/+bug/1251394
16:55	pinesol_green	Launchpad bug 1251394 in Evergreen "Metabib Display Fields" (affected: 1, heat: 6) [Undecided,New] - Assigned to Bill Erickson (erickson-esilibrary)
16:55	jeff	berick: thanks!
16:55	berick	would be the best thing ever
16:55	berick	to get that hammered out
16:55	jeff	would speed many things up
16:55	jeff	not to mention be quite useful for sql reporting and jasper reports ;-)
16:55	jeff	(well, reports in general)
16:56	berick	yes, speed, configurability of display, kicking ModsParser.pm to the curb
17:03		alexrex left #evergreen
17:04		mdriscoll left #evergreen
17:10	bshum	Hmm, how does sorting by publication date work?
17:10	bshum	From newest to oldest, etc.
17:10	bshum	Trying to see what I'm not seeing with some things that seem out of order
17:25	bshum	Oh is it something to do with fixed fields and the pubdate definition in config.record_attr_definition?
17:26	berick	bshum: IIRC, yes, pubdate sorting is based on the pubdate extracted from the record attr defs
17:27	bshum	Aha
17:27	bshum	So maybe all these crummy things are bad bibs with NULL pubdates skewing the data
17:27	bshum	For the stuff that's showing up ahead of everything else
17:27	bshum	berick++ # thanks, that helps
17:28	bshum	Also, thanks for the ride to the airport :D
17:28	jeffdavis	bshum: ldwhalen was looking at an issue that sounds related...
17:28	jeffdavis	ldwhalen: ^^
17:28	berick	bshum: my pleasure. twas right on my way
17:29	bshum	Yeah there's a few fixed field bugs in the tracker
17:29		mmorgan left #evergreen
17:29	ldwhalen	bshum: I have a fix on Sitka's EG for that.
17:30	ldwhalen	It is not complete. It shoves the NULL 008 date1s to the bottom of the results
17:31	ldwhalen	The goal of the SQL in my second lightning talk is to fix the invalid 008 date1 values
17:32	bshum	Cool
17:32	bshum	Well the answer regarding fixed fields satisfied for now.
17:32	bshum	At least it gives us a good starting place.
17:32	bshum	I'll try adding some time to follow up with you ldwhalen on ideas on fixing things. I'm sure people may like that.
17:33		kbeswick joined #evergreen
17:48		edoceo joined #evergreen
17:59	bshum	dbwells: I'm taking a look at https://bugs.launchpad.net/evergreen/+bug/1259665 next. I added the new index and am going to let the reingest work overnight.
17:59	pinesol_green	Launchpad bug 1259665 in Evergreen "Series search in 2.5 does not retrieve 800 \|t" (affected: 3, heat: 20) [High,Confirmed]
18:02	bshum	I imagine it'll take a little while.
18:04	* bshum	likes simple approaches.
18:08	berick	close_tabs_to_the_right++
18:09		OhioJoe joined #evergreen
18:11		j_scott joined #evergreen
18:15	dbs	berick: infinite scroll - watch for browser memory consumption. I'm sure you're aware of it but some approaches gobble memory horribly.
18:16	* dbs	is hanging out at YYZ, with snow drifiting down and flight delayed by 40 minutes so far (due to much more snow at home)
18:23	bshum	dbs: Ouch.
18:24	bshum	I'm waiting for my next flight in Cleveland. It's just raining over here.
18:26	dbs	Oh, no big deal. Part of the package of living in Sudbury. Might still be cross country skiing when I wget back!
18:30	Bmagic	my flight was delayed in Nashville southwest--
18:30	bshum	:(
18:30	bshum	we'll all get home someday!
18:31	Bmagic	So far I'm not sure I will but it was great meeting everyone even if I don't make it home!
18:37		pinesol_green` joined #evergreen
18:45	bshum	@swill
18:45	* pinesol_green	grabs a can of Sparks Stinger and sends it sliding down the bar to bshum
18:46	bshum	@bartender dbs
18:46	* pinesol_green	fills a pint glass with Beck's, and sends it sliding down the bar to dbs (http://beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/32/2435/)
18:46	bshum	Eh, have to work on why @coffee doesn't work on ours.
18:46	bshum	Among others
18:46	bshum	Whisky is borked. Looks like the website moved. So zoia's is broken too.
18:48	bshum	Oh crap.
18:48	bshum	I just rm -r'd all our assorted plugins
18:48	bshum	Sigh
18:51	* dbs	laughs
18:56	bshum	Yeah it's the little things in life.
18:58	bshum	@who is to blame for pinesol_green's mess.
18:58	pinesol_green	egbuilder is to blame for pinesol_green's mess.
18:58	bshum	Whew
18:58	bshum	Okay, time to get on the next plane, hopefully
18:58	bshum	Laters!
19:01		terranmc joined #evergreen
19:01		terranm joined #evergreen
19:34		kmlussier joined #evergreen
20:47	bshum	Hello NY! (this much closer to home)
21:38	* jcamins	waves from down the block.
22:56	bshum	Heh, and home, sweet home
22:59	* jcamins	waves from a state away.
23:22	* Guest2223	waves from significantly farther away.
23:22	Guest2223	Hmm, I'm a Guest, eh?
23:43		rfrasur joined #evergreen
23:54	pastebot	"bshum" at 64.57.241.14 pasted "reingest failure?" (8 lines) at http://paste.evergreen-ils.org/37
23:55	* Guest2223	expected "reingest failure" to be related to food in some way
23:55	bshum	Hehe
23:55	bshum	Unfortunately not.
23:56	bshum	@later tell dbwells Testing the reingest command at the end of the 800t reingest with the new browse broke something on my test server. Not sure if it's index related or something deeper. Will investigate more tomorrow.
23:56	pinesol_green	bshum: The operation succeeded.
23:56	dcook	And I'm back
23:57	dcook	Quick ? for you bshum if I may?
23:57	bshum	dcook: For sure!
23:57	dcook	What does Evergreen use for indexing?
23:57	* dcook	wonders this periodically
23:58	bshum	I'm not sure exactly if I'm answering this right
23:58	bshum	But basically Evergreen's data is stored in various tables in the database. And there's indexes on those tables to speed up various search retrievals.
23:59	bshum	We make use of PostgreSQL's built-in full text search to look things up
23:59	bshum	The various indexes that are searchable are created by defining what parts of the MARC we want to be searchable, etc.