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IRC log for #evergreen, 2013-07-26

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All times shown according to the server's local time.

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07:33 bshum dbs: Dyrcona, gmcharlt, and I were discussing that earlier this week. I sent the student an email the other night to touch base. Going to try harder to get some details as soon as possible...
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08:19 jboyer-isl Anyone at their keyboard this morning with action trigger expertise? Or even a passing familiarity?
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08:43 _bott_ jboyer-isl: I'll chime in for passing familiarity
08:44 jboyer-isl Good to hear.
08:44 jboyer-isl I don't know how good of an idea it is, but there's a process here that checks to see if our utility server is running out of children, and if that message appears more than 10 times, it restarts all of the services on that machine.
08:45 jboyer-isl The reason I don't think it's a good idea is that now we have absolutely tons of events that are stuck in the "in-between" states like validating, valid, collected (soo many of those), and reacted.
08:45 Dyrcona jboyer-isl: If you're running out of children that often, it usually means you need to configure more.
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08:46 jboyer-isl That's what I thought, but I also wanted to ask how many other sites are running. We're up to 100 cstore children, are several sites sticking to the default, or way higher? I was considering 200.
08:47 _bott_ Is it a particular type of event that seems to occur?  Does this happen during daily overdues, or something similar?
08:47 jboyer-isl What I'm also wondering is if deleting the events that are stuck will cause them to be re-collected and get through the process.
08:47 Dyrcona We upped our cstore children almost immediately after our migration. Hang on and I'll see what we're at.
08:48 jboyer-isl _bott_: sadly, no. It doesn't happen regularly, maybe once every 2 weeks or so. Might be related to overdue/courtesy notices since those can come and go in number.
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08:51 Dyrcona Our cstore max_children is at 100.
08:53 Dyrcona I think most of our other services are higher than the defaults, too.
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09:02 jboyer-isl Dyrcona: so I can try to compare halfway sensibly, about how many libraries are in your consortium? For example, if you're running with 100 children and only have 20 libraries, then we've done something terribly wrong.
09:02 Dyrcona jboyer-isl: We have 35 members with about 40 locations. We also have fairly heavy use of the catalog by patrons.
09:03 Dyrcona We only run the 1 server, so we're not using bricks or multiple servers for the applications.
09:03 jboyer-isl Oh my. We've got over 100 systems and I think 125 or more locations.
09:04 jboyer-isl Our A/T stuff is run on a single server, that's probably not going to cut it with 100 children.
09:05 Dyrcona jboyer-isl: We upped ours, IIRC, after one of our larger members tried to look at their hold shelf list or their pull list, and it died after using up 24 children for that one act alone.
09:05 jboyer-isl (We only raised it from 60 to 100 within the last month, too. :/ )
09:06 Dyrcona Ours has been at 100 since June of 2011.
09:06 Dyrcona If you're running services separately on your A/T machine, then you could adjust it and leave the others untouched.
09:06 Dyrcona I'm not sure of your configuration, though.
09:08 jboyer-isl We've got 5 app bricks, 1 utility server and technically 1.5 database machines. (No pooling yet, that's another project I'm working toward.)
09:08 jboyer-isl Thanks for the info, I'll do some math and see if I can't get our utility machine to stop wheezing.
09:10 _bott_ Heh.  We've got 3 bricks + utility, 2 DBs + reporter   ...for 1 system 8 locations.  No wonder I don't see these issues.
09:10 jboyer-isl But I'll bet it's a happy system. :D
09:11 _bott_ I sleep well
09:30 csharp jboyer-isl: late to the conversation, but we have 72 max children per brick (6 bricks)
09:30 csharp (cstore)
09:30 jboyer-isl Where do you run your A/T events?
09:31 csharp jboyer-isl: our utility server
09:31 csharp there we appear to have 15 max cstore children
09:32 jboyer-isl 15 or 150?
09:32 csharp 15
09:32 csharp ;-)
09:32 jboyer-isl Seems low. That doesn't cause any problems?
09:32 csharp not that we've seen
09:33 jboyer-isl Huh.
09:33 csharp I didn't realize it was that low, actually
09:33 csharp obviously not causing noticeable issues though
09:33 jboyer-isl That's good.
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09:35 csharp jboyer-isl: are your A/T processes granular?
09:35 csharp or are you just processing everything at once?
09:36 csharp we had a problem just after our 2.1 upgrade where A/T would run, then die without telling anybody
09:36 csharp the solution was to make it more granular
09:38 pastebot "csharp" at 204.193.129.146 pasted "PINES A/T cron setup" (12 lines) at http://paste.evergreen-ils.org/12
09:38 jboyer-isl granular, but there are things every 2 mins, 3 mins, hourly, daily, multi-day, etc. some of them have to be hitting around the same time.
09:38 csharp note that we aren't yet using A/T for overdue/pre-overdue notices
09:38 csharp still using legacy scripts
09:39 jboyer-isl Ah, we're using A/T for pre-due emails, day of, and a couple levels of overdue.
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09:40 pastebot "jboyer-isl" at 204.193.129.146 pasted "EI A/T entries" (26 lines) at http://paste.evergreen-ils.org/13
09:41 jboyer-isl It looks to me though, from what your setup looks like and what ours is doing, we pile things up every couple of minutes, but only really "run" things every 30. I really haven't looked into how this stuff works much.
09:42 jboyer-isl I also, apparently, use a lot of commas, it seems...
09:42 csharp yeah, I can see how that would add up as far as processing goes
09:43 jboyer-isl No, I misread. I didn't see the --run-pending that's in all of the ganularity lines. I'm really not certain what the first line is doing then. :/
09:45 csharp hmm - that's how ESI had it set before
09:46 csharp I have had to reverse engineer everything I know about A/T
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09:47 csharp looks like we process hooks nightly, then hourly/daily for those granularity settings
09:47 jboyer-isl I was about to open action_trigger_runner.pl and just start reading, may have to wait until I get back from offsite backup duty.
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09:48 csharp jboyer-isl: yeah - most of the business logic is in the perl libs
09:49 csharp not a lot of inline documentation and not a lot of INFO-level logging iirc
09:49 jboyer-isl #XXX need to figure out why this is required...
09:49 jboyer-isl Now I have a headache.
09:49 csharp heh - exactly
09:50 jboyer-isl Well this will have to wait, that rabbit hole is too deep.
09:50 jboyer-isl Thanks for the info csharp!
09:51 csharp jboyer-isl: sure - I'm sure we'll hit more issues when we move to A/T overdue notices
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10:29 bshum Unrelated, Happy SysAdminDay to my fellow Evergreeners.
10:45 gmcharlt there is one?  where is she?
10:45 gmcharlt ;)
10:51 csharp bshum: and to you!
10:51 csharp (we'll have to be happy congratulating each other since no non-sys-admins even know there is such a day)
10:51 csharp WHERE'S MY FRUIT BASKET?!
10:52 gmcharlt csharp++
10:52 * Dyrcona is a fruit basket after most days.
10:52 csharp Dyrcona++
10:53 * Dyrcona wishes everyone a happy day, regardless.
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11:02 Brenda_ I needing some information on your ils system
11:02 Dyrcona Brenda_: Just ask any questions that you have.
11:04 Brenda_ I am a Library science student and doing a product review for a small rural library.  What is the cost in using the evergreen ils system
11:04 Dyrcona Brenda_: It's nominally free. However, if you lack expertise in GNU/Linux, you'll need someone else to host it for you and that varies by vendor.
11:05 Brenda_ what models are avaiable
11:05 Dyrcona What do you mean by "models?"
11:06 Brenda_ sorry modules
11:06 csharp Brenda_: other costs to consider: migrating from one system to another, training, possible equipment upgrades, etc.
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11:07 Brenda_ the library is a running a legacy system.  How would I know what i need
11:07 Dyrcona Brenda_: Have you had a look at this: http://www.evergreen-ils.org/
11:07 Brenda_ yes, i am on website
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11:10 Dyrcona What you need depends on a number of factors: how many branches, how many staff and patrons, how many bibliographic records, how many copies, how much circulation, etc.
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11:12 Brenda_ staff would be 1 full time and 3 part time and small rual library is all i have.  can you give me a idea to work with
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11:14 Dyrcona I'm not very good at guessing.
11:15 csharp Brenda_: you will probably want to gather more specifics before proceeding, since a lot of the answers to your questions depend on multiple factors
11:15 Brenda_ what is the training and technical support avaible and is their any hardware needed
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11:16 csharp Brenda_: have you seen this? http://www.open-ils.org/dokuwiki/​doku.php?id=faqs:evergreen_faq_1
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11:17 csharp Brenda_: this is a loosely-moderated list of tech support vendors that offer Evergreen support: http://www.open-ils.org/dokuwiki/do​ku.php?id=faqs:evergreen_companies
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11:20 Dyrcona heh. I should put myself on that list.... ;)
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11:32 rfrasur wonderful, blessed last day of summer library program
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11:39 csharp @eightball will the fall be less hectic?
11:39 pinesol_green csharp: Come again?
11:40 rfrasur eightball isn't always right.  Just saying.  Of course it will be less hectic.  Let's just hope it's not because a snow storm or hurricane knocks out the electricity.
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11:55 mcooper anybody else finding search_authority_batch_by_simple_normalize_heading problematic in the context of the fixed validate button in the marc editor with large numbers of authority records in the database?
11:56 mcooper produces sql like: http://pastebin.com/Q7xkdwkW
11:56 mcooper which takes forever ...
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11:57 Phenol Has anyone migrated from Unicorn to Evergreen and run into a issue with the CIRCNOTE on he 999 tag?
11:57 mcooper Phenol: what's the problem exactly?
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11:58 Phenol when migrating if the holding has a CIRCNOTE with it stats the tag 999 to have 2 code 'a'
11:58 Phenol with with the call number
11:58 Phenol the other with the CIRCNOTE actual note
11:59 Phenol and I run into dupe 'a' fields
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12:02 mcooper Phenol: is the holding field configurable with unicorn? i know another sd ils that let you define the subfield mapping for holdings
12:03 Phenol if It is I don't know where it would be. I don' know Unicorn that well...
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12:04 Phenol I was trying to export the 999 holdings without the circnote
12:04 Phenol but I didn't see an option for that either
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12:10 eeevil mcooper: an index using that stored proc look needed to me
12:11 mcooper Phenol: not sure what your general process is but one idea: update the subfield code of CIRCNOTE to something unique using marc::record or rubymarc, or maybe marcedit
12:11 Dyrcona eeevil mcooper: I was going to suggest searching authority.full_rec joined with authority.record_entry to exclude deleted.
12:12 mcooper eeevil: thanks! will look into it -- and, is that a candidate for a wishlist item on launchpad?
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12:13 Dyrcona Oh, my mistake. I missed part of the question.
12:13 eeevil mcooper: absolutely ... IIRC, there /was/ such an index before ... maybe it was the unique index that was checking for collisions, but was too strict given data in the wild
12:14 mcooper eeevil++
12:15 eeevil so... yeah. there was an index like that, going back to 2.2, crated by 0575
12:15 eeevil created
12:15 eeevil also listed in 800.fkeys.sql
12:16 eeevil CREATE INDEX by_heading ON authority.record_entry (authority.simple_normalize_heading(marc)) WHERE deleted IS FALSE or deleted = FALSE;
12:16 rfrasur eeevil++ # good job on the release
12:16 eeevil not sure why you don't have that...
12:16 eeevil rfrasur: thanks :)
12:16 rfrasur nope...thank you
12:17 mcooper eeevil: that's something very concrete for me to look into -- awesome, thanks a lot!
12:18 eeevil mcooper: I'd just stick a CONCURRENTLY in there between INDEX and by_heading and run it, were I you ... won't hurt, and /will/ help :)
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13:38 jeff_ woo. going live with NCIP and the state resource sharing system somewhere between Monday and Thursday of next week.
13:39 rfrasur jeff_++ # I'll be very interested to hear how the whole thing goes.  Not sure if we could do something similar here, but it'd sure be awesome if we could.
13:40 jeff_ rfrasur: your patrons can place holds which are then filled by any other library within Evergreen Indiana, right?
13:40 rfrasur yep
13:40 jeff_ rfrasur: in my experience, stick with that. :-)
13:41 rfrasur but for the statewide resource sharing, we use an OCLC product
13:41 rfrasur firstshare? (I only know enough to have someone else train someone else)
13:42 jboyer-isl FirstSearch. My wife used to do ILL at JCPL.
13:42 rfrasur and it's completely separate from EG, so no number are pulled into the ILS.  Some libs use temp barcodes and pre-cat or other work arounds.
13:43 rfrasur Yes, FirstSearch...ty.  (I might have been combining FirstSearch and WorldShare?).  It works, obviously, but it's not very elegant.
13:44 jeff_ (integrate all the things!)
13:44 rfrasur yes!
13:44 * Dyrcona swings the Hammer of Disintegration.
13:44 rfrasur Noooooo!
13:45 rfrasur Please wait until 7 p.m. to truly give it a good swing.
13:45 jcamins Oy! Watch it with that thing! Someone was waving it around for fun a few years ago and hit Koha's C4::Search!
13:46 * Dyrcona notes that it is always 7pm somewhere.
13:46 rfrasur 7 p.m. EST tyvm
13:48 Dyrcona So, 8 pm EDT?
13:48 Dyrcona Isn't time fun?
13:48 rfrasur o.0
13:48 jeff_ oh good. duplicate NCIP message detection code which I was going to modify to work in a multi-server environment is no longer required.
13:49 Dyrcona jeff_: That was one piece of iNCIPit that bugged me. Why do you need duplicate message detection code?
13:49 * rfrasur lives in Indiana....whatever time we are is standard.
13:49 rfrasur (damn daylight savings time)
13:50 Dyrcona Damn time. I'll just get up and do things when I damned good and ready. ;)
13:51 rfrasur Dyrcona++ #except swinging the Hammer of Disintegration which will be after 7 p.m. Indiana Time
13:51 jeff_ Dyrcona: long answer short, you don't.
13:57 Dyrcona I notice that there have been no changes to the code on github for a while.
13:57 Dyrcona Is that what you are running, jeff_?
14:00 jeff i need to rip out the hardcoded bits into a config and update the repo in tadl's github org. i'm not as concerned about ensuring that we have a logical history of this thing -- i think that's no longer attainable.
14:00 jeff email and IM are poor methods of revision control.
14:01 Dyrcona Yes, they are.
14:01 Dyrcona I use git as a sort of distribution mechanism, too.
14:02 Dyrcona I edit the code on the laptop and then push to the server to test it.
14:02 * jeff nods
14:07 jeff fieldmapper alias typos are one of those "probably really difficult to fix" things.
14:09 Dyrcona Could be....
14:09 jeff mostly i'm thinking of things that will end up referencing it, like report templates.
14:09 jeff i suppose upgrade scripts could revise those... maybe.
14:09 * jeff shrugs
14:10 Dyrcona I used to have a tendency to confuse actor.card (ac) with asset.copy (acp).
14:11 jeff in reality, they are somewhat arbitrary and it is only convention that makes me say "the alias of 'actscecm' on actor::stat_cat_entry_user_map looks wrong")
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14:38 rfrasur Does anybody know a way to do a weighted random draw in Excel?
14:39 * rfrasur looks it up
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14:54 yboston hello, I found a "circulation policy" that was added in error. Can I just delete the row in (based on id) from config.circ_matrix_matchpoint? I know I can just make it not active, but I rather delete it. TIA
14:54 Dyrcona yboston: You can delete it, but I would just make it active = false;
14:56 yboston Dyrcona:  Thanks. I guess setting active=false  could be helpful if I change my mind so it is easy to reinstate? any other reasons off the top of your head?
14:56 Dyrcona yboston: It's just what I typically do rather than delete.
14:57 yboston Dyrcona: thanks for the info and sharing your preferred workflow
14:57 kmlussier Dyrcona++
14:57 kmlussier I forgot include you in all the thanks I sent yesterday when signing off on the bib browse code, so I'm sending along karma now instead.
14:58 kmlussier Dyrcona can not get enough good karma for all the assistance he gives me when I'm testing code. :)
15:18 csharp @karma Dyrcona
15:18 pinesol_green csharp: Karma for "Dyrcona" has been increased 382 times and decreased 3 times for a total karma of 379.
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15:52 mmorgan I'm trying to test an action trigger. Is there a recommended way to remove rows from the database so I can tweak and retest?
16:06 jboyer-isl mmorgan: A guess I'm thinking of testing soon: delete from action_trigger.event where event_def=(The event id you're testing). You could add additional clauses for add_time, state, etc. if needed.
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16:08 jboyer-isl but note that I've not tried it yet.
16:10 mmorgan Thanks, anything I try will be on a test server :). Will deleting the row from action_trigger.event also remove rows from action_trigger.event_output?
16:10 mmorgan or can those just stay there and not bother anybody?
16:10 jboyer-isl Ah, I doubt it.
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16:10 jboyer-isl Cleaning them up might make testing easier, if that's where you're looking for success/failure.
16:14 mmorgan Good point. I will give this a try on a test server, but maybe not til Monday. Thanks!
16:16 bshum In the old days, we used to just put complete times on unfinished A/T events
16:16 bshum And change the status
16:17 bshum But deleting is also simple too.
16:20 mmorgan I'm fine with updating rather than deleting. I'm testing notices and want to be able to run the same trigger again for the same user.
16:23 mmorgan events for the event_def I'm working with have status complete but complete_ time of null. Can I update these fields to get it to run again after I make changes to the template?
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16:49 bshum mmorgan: Hmm, I'd say, probably
16:50 bshum I think we used to do that when we were testing acq EDI
16:50 bshum And it would error out
16:50 bshum So we'd tweak things, then null out the output and complete stuff and try again
16:54 mmorgan Thanks! I'll look at that on Monday, too. Don't want to try anything new on a database on a Friday afternoon.
16:55 kmlussier mmorgan: Go home and enjoy the beautiful weather! ;)
16:55 mmorgan What beautiful weather?? Where?? It's quite gray out my window!
16:56 kmlussier I think I glimpsed a ray of sunshine a couple of hours ago.
16:57 Dyrcona @wunder 01845
16:57 pinesol_green Dyrcona: The current temperature in North Andover, Massachusetts is 70.5°F (4:52 PM EDT on July 26, 2013). Conditions: Overcast. Humidity: 77%. Dew Point: 62.6°F. Pressure: 29.96 in 1014 hPa (Steady).
16:58 mmorgan Maybe all the clouds will lift in the next two minutes and we can all enjoy the beautiful weather! :)
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18:00 kmlussier Who would know who this e-mail address goes to? webteam@evergreen-ils.org
18:00 kmlussier I suspect it could be going to someone that is no longer invovled in the web team.
18:09 gmcharlt kmlussier: it is indeed
18:09 gmcharlt to whom would it like it directed?
18:09 kmlussier gmcharlt: Can you make it go to me instead?
18:09 kmlussier Why do I think I just opened myself up to tons of SPAM?
18:11 kmlussier gmcharlt: While you're paying attention, Amy is listed as the contact for the EOB on http://evergreen-ils.org/dokuwiki/do​ku.php?id=faqs:evergreen_committees. Should I change it to you?
18:11 gmcharlt kmlussier: yeah
18:12 gmcharlt kmlussier: also, communications@ at now goes to you
18:12 kmlussier Yay!
18:12 * gmcharlt can smell the sarcasm all the way across the continent ;)
18:12 kmlussier :D
18:12 kmlussier Why do we have a communications@?
18:13 gmcharlt kmlussier: for the communications committee, at guess at a point where it was separate from the web teawm?
18:14 * kmlussier nods.
18:14 gmcharlt actually, I'm not seeing any current references to that address, so I'm inclined to just kill it
18:15 kmlussier +1
18:15 gmcharlt done did dead
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