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IRC log for #evergreen, 2013-06-26

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All times shown according to the server's local time.

Time Nick Message
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08:35 csharp hmm looking at bug 1099871, which is marked as a duplicate of bug 1076062 - however, the "first" issue in 1099871 never seems to have been addressed (i.e., "You have permission to override some of the failed holds." is still appearing for patrons who do not have that permission)
08:35 pinesol_green Launchpad bug 1076062 in Evergreen 2.3 "duplicate for #1099871 hold override fails in the TPAC" (affected: 4, heat: 24) [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1076062
08:35 pinesol_green Launchpad bug 1076062 in Evergreen 2.3 "hold override fails in the TPAC" (affected: 4, heat: 24) [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1076062
08:35 * csharp intends to open a new bug on that separate issue
08:39 kmlussier bug 1099871
08:39 pinesol_green Launchpad bug 1076062 in Evergreen 2.3 "duplicate for #1099871 hold override fails in the TPAC" (affected: 4, heat: 24) [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1076062
08:39 kmlussier Huh, so pinesol doesn't point to the original bug when it's marked as a duplicate?
08:40 csharp bug 1194860 created
08:40 pinesol_green Launchpad bug 1194860 in Evergreen ""You have permission to override some of the failed holds." appearing when it should not for patrons in the OPAC" (affected: 1, heat: 6) [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1194860
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08:46 kmlussier csharp: Do you have the Auto-Override Permitted Hold Blocks (Patrons) OU Setting set to true?
08:47 * csharp checks
08:47 * Dyrcona thinks the best fix we're going to get on csharp's bug is adding the word "may" between "You" and "have."
08:48 kmlussier csharp: Oh, wait. That won't help you since your patrons don't have permission. Should have read the bug report a little more carefully.
08:49 csharp since our patrons don't have the permission (and we don't want them to have it), our preference would be to not have that message/option appear at all
08:49 csharp it's causing confusion from both patrons and staff
08:49 * kmlussier agrees with csharp
08:50 csharp I've been looking into just commenting some code out or something and call it a "PINES customization", but I'd rather push this through the bug channels if others agree it's an issue
08:51 csharp I also realize this is a "feature not a bug" situation ;-)
08:52 csharp @eightball Is it legitimate to call a feature we don't want a "bug"?
08:52 pinesol_green csharp: Come again?
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08:55 Dyrcona csharp: The trouble is that at the time the message is generated, all TPAC knows is that the normal hold placement failed. It has no idea why, and it has no idea if the patron can override the reason(s) or not.
08:56 paxed phasefx: re. bug 1156545 - i updated the branch once again, and fixed more stuff - like the patron bills UI. i'd appreciate some eyeballs on it ...
08:56 pinesol_green Launchpad bug 1156545 in Evergreen "Currency symbol and format should not be in po-file translatable texts" (affected: 1, heat: 6) [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1156545 - Assigned to Pasi Kallinen (paxed)
08:57 csharp Dyrcona: that sounds to me like a problem that needs solving - do you agree?
08:58 Dyrcona csharp: Sure, feel free to refactor Holds.pm and while you're at it, everything under OpenILS::Application::Circ could use a similar treatment.
08:59 kmlussier Do we need a message there at all for patrons? I know the OU setting is there to give an option to libraries, but why would a patron choose not to override a hold if they are given the option?
09:00 csharp Dyrcona: I'm not trying to be sarcastic - I actually don't have the skills to know what's required for the change to happen
09:01 Dyrcona csharp: I guess I am sarcastically pointing what is required to fix it properly. This is one of those things that sounds simple, but really isn't.
09:01 csharp kmlussier: the main issue for us is the message and the appearance that there is an option to do something we don't want them to be able to do
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09:02 csharp Dyrcona: fair enough - though it does seem odd to me that so much work went into a feature that doesn't appear to have general applicability
09:03 Dyrcona csharp: Have you wondered why most software sucks? Now, you know the answer.
09:03 kmlussier csharp: Sure, I understand that. But since it sounds like it would be difficult for Evegreen to make that distinction, I was thinking it would be better not to show that message (regardless of whether the patron has permission to override or not) and to automatically override the block than to show a message that could cause potential confusion.
09:04 Dyrcona The big problem with software development is that the requirements constantly change. Software is never finished.
09:04 Dyrcona Comparing it to architecture, it is like we were asked to build a 10-story building and we did.
09:04 kmlussier From what I understand, that message can cause confusion even when the patron has permission to override.
09:05 Dyrcona A year later, the customer says "Can you add two new floors between the 6th and the 7th?"
09:05 Dyrcona kmlussier: Any message leads to confusion.
09:06 kmlussier Yes, exactly. So why show the message at all? It makes the patron think too much. If they have permission to override it, then automatically override it without prompting the patron. If they don't have permission, then tell them the hold failed.
09:06 Dyrcona The architect laughs in the customer's face, but software developers are expected to do it, even if it destroys other important features.
09:06 csharp kmlussier: that works for PINES, but for libraries who do want the patrons to override the block, I would be concerned that the absence of a message might lead the patron to believe they have placed a "normal" hold - not a "currently unfillable" one
09:06 Dyrcona kmlussier: I don't know why the message is there.
09:07 csharp Dyrcona: please understand that I'm not necessarily expecting anyone to do anything - I'm just reporting an issue with a feature that doesn't apply to our main use case for holds
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09:08 Dyrcona csharp: Please understand, I'm just explaining why things don't always seem to make sense in a software project as large as Evergreen. I'm not implying anything about what anyone is or isn't asking for.
09:08 csharp and if it comes to it, we don't mind spec-ing out new requirements and contracting with developers to build in the 6th and 7th floors ;-)
09:09 csharp Dyrcona: gotcha - and know that I've been around a while and understand there are a lot of parties involved that will sometimes disagree on the basics
09:09 * Dyrcona wears a hard hat and steel-toed boots to work.
09:10 Dyrcona csharp: I know. It's tough balancing your/our own needs with the rest of the community.
09:11 Dyrcona I don't mean to be flip, either. Software is hard, because unlike architecture, we've only been doing it for 60-odd years or so.
09:12 csharp I agree
09:12 csharp on a vaguely related note, I'd be happy to see "range protected items" go away anyway
09:13 csharp in our case, they are based on an outdated sense of the value of A/V itesm
09:14 csharp and new items should all be in floating collections since they don't stay on any one shelf for the first 6-9 months of their lives anyway
09:14 Dyrcona Yes. I can see that. A/V items are now cheaper than books, but most staff don't seem to grasp that.
09:14 * csharp hops down from the soapbox and goes back to reality-based thinking
09:14 Rogan_ We have that odd perception about the value of AV items as well.
09:17 * Dyrcona just realized that he has been listening to Jamiroquai's album "Traveling Without Moving" which has a theme of the virtual vs the real in almost every song.
09:18 Dyrcona Ah, well, guess I'd better see if z39.50 can be coaxed into returning all the results in a single stream.
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09:20 Dyrcona Expect me to vanish and reappear.
09:20 * Dyrcona tries a magic trick.
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09:23 Dyrcona My magic appears to be rusty....
09:24 paxed you really should've had a busty assistant directing our attention somewhere else.
09:25 Dyrcona heh.
09:25 * Dyrcona pulls out the Hammer of Disintegration....
09:28 * tsbere grumbles about closed source non-standards-compliant mail clients
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09:32 * csharp suggests tsbere replace those clients with Thunderbird and just change the icon to look like Outlook and see if anyone notices
09:32 tsbere csharp: Wonderful idea. But I am not running around like a nutcase to all the clients, nor am I going anywhere near the three machines I know of that are also talking to an exchange server. >_>
09:34 csharp heh
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10:00 Dyrcona gmcharlt: I'm getting "no mapping found for [0xFC] at position ..." for several records while trying to convert from MARC8 to UTF8 using MARC::Charset. Is that a known issue?
10:02 Dyrcona Heh. Googling the other message that I get turns up results about black holes.
10:02 Dyrcona http://lmgtfy.com/?q=seem+to+have+f​allen+through+in+_process_escape()
10:05 Dyrcona Google says it is.
10:05 csharp @eightball does MARC::Charset contain the secrets of the universe?
10:05 pinesol_green csharp: I doubt it very much.
10:06 csharp sorry gmcharlt  ;-)
10:07 Dyrcona Of course, I find mostly discussion of the problem in IRC, but nothing that points to a solution.
10:07 dbs Dyrcona: without the source record, hard to figure out what's going on. Could be ISO-Latin-1 chars?
10:08 dbs Or an already UTF8 record that was incorrectly marked as MARC8?
10:08 Dyrcona dbs: I'm trying to convert from MARC8 to UTF8, I'll paste the perl code I'm using. Maybe I'm doing something wrong?
10:08 dbs Lots of possibilities
10:08 Dyrcona If the latter is the case, I quit.
10:08 dbs If the data in the source record is bad to begin with, then MARC::Charset can't help :/
10:08 Dyrcona Um, no.... That happens all the time.
10:09 * Dyrcona suspects all data is bad until proven otherwise.
10:09 dbs well, encoded char data specifically :)
10:10 * tsbere suspects all data is bad even after it is proven otherwise
10:10 eeevil Dyrcona: oh, don't let a "says it's marc8 but its really already utf8" record make you quit. that's /really/ common
10:10 Dyrcona Why can't we all just speak English? <--- C'est dit dans un ton qui exprime l'ironie, bien sûr. :)
10:10 gmcharlt Dyrcona: yep, would be interested to see the source record
10:11 jeff_ csharp: above when you're referring to range protected items, you're talking about age protection / age hold protection, i.e., things defined in config.rule_age_hold_protect and referenced by asset.copy.age_protect?
10:11 gmcharlt csharp: however, MARC::Charset may well contain the secrets of ... some decidedly lower planes of existence ;)
10:12 pastebot "Dyrcona" at 204.193.129.146 pasted "The program that I'm using to convert binary MARC8 to binary UTF8." (21 lines) at http://paste.evergreen-ils.org/25
10:13 jeff_ to paraphrase a recent instantiation of a sci-fi character commonly seen on the BBC, "every[data] lies!"
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10:14 jeff_ no, nevermind, different doctor.
10:14 pastebot "Dyrcona" at 204.193.129.146 pasted "One of the several records that blow up" (1 line) at http://paste.evergreen-ils.org/26
10:15 jeff_ Rule One: The Data Lies.
10:15 Dyrcona jeff_: "You may be a doctor, but I am THE doctor."
10:15 csharp jeff_: yes, that's right
10:15 jeff_ csharp: thanks.
10:16 Dyrcona Rule Zero: The documentation lies.
10:16 Dyrcona ;)
10:16 csharp "all magicians lie, and this one more than most"
10:17 csharp @decide Jonathan Strange or the 10th doctor
10:17 pinesol_green csharp: I see nothing, I know nothing!
10:22 Dyrcona Who let Shulz in here?
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10:34 dbs Dyrcona: can you upload the binary MARC somewhere? i'm not really trusting paste to keep the data in its pristine corrupt state
10:34 senator failing that, uuencode!</1990>
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10:53 Dyrcona Ah, nice.
11:04 Dyrcona My problem seems to be with MARC8 records that have latin 1 characters in them.
11:06 dbs That's an oldie but a goodie
11:08 Dyrcona Should I try yaz-iconv instead of MARC::Charset?
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11:09 dbs In the past, I've written my own find/replace subroutine for problems like that to run before the conversion :/
11:09 rfrasur (good morning all)
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11:09 Dyrcona I wonder if there are any MARC8 records, and if they're not all Latin 1.
11:10 dbs see http://goo.gl/CMBjm for a horrible example.
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11:16 Dyrcona So, looks like the MARC file is in Latin-1 in its entirety.
11:16 zerick joined #evergreen
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11:19 dbs yaz-marcdump to marctxt, then iconv it from Latin-1 to UTF8, and yaz-marcdump it back to MARC21 with ldr 9 shifted to 'a'?
11:19 dbs And hire goons to beat whoever gave you Latin-1 records?
11:21 * rfrasur will take the goon job
11:21 rfrasur for free
11:21 bshum rfrasur++
11:22 Dyrcona yaz-iconv -f iso8859-1 -t marc8 mvlcmarc.dat | perl ~/Src/perl/marccnv.pl > mvlcmarc.utf8
11:23 Dyrcona Since the authority records all came from the same vendor's ILS, I'm going to assume that they are in Latin-1 also.
11:24 Dyrcona I'm working on bibs, now, and authorities later.
11:24 Dyrcona Anyone seen this before? seem to have fallen through in _process_escape() at /usr/share/perl5/MARC/Charset.pm line 445.
11:24 Dyrcona That's the one that turns up Google results for black holes.
11:25 dbs Dyrcona: which version of MARC::Charset is that?
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11:27 Dyrcona dbs: 1.33
11:28 eeevil Dyrcona: you may want to just use yaz-marcdump, which can rewrite the leader for you
11:28 eeevil unless marccnv.pl does a ton more than just   marc8->utf8
11:29 dbs oh yeah, forgot that yaz-marcdump -f/-t accept encodings other than utf8 and marc8 :)
11:30 Dyrcona eeevil: I pasted what my script is doing above, though I modified it since to take STDIN as a filehandle.
11:30 dbs eeevil++
11:30 Dyrcona eeevil dbs Yes, I'm just going to try yaz-marcdump on the next run. my pipeline is still blowing up.
11:30 Dyrcona Though only on 0x1E at the moment.
11:31 eeevil oh, yeah, then ... yaz-marcdump -f iso8859-1 -t UTF-8 -o marc -l 9=97 marc21.raw >marc21.utf8.raw
11:31 Dyrcona eeevil: I may just go with -o marcxml. ;)
11:31 eeevil or go all the way to marcxml with -o marcxml
11:31 eeevil jinx
11:32 Dyrcona heh.
11:34 paxed wtf material, that.
11:34 eeevil dbs: any thoughts on the end of bug 1187433?
11:34 pinesol_green Launchpad bug 1187433 in Evergreen "apostrophe search issues in 2.4" (affected: 3, heat: 20) [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1187433
11:34 rfrasur paxed++
11:40 dbs eeevil: Still need to test it, just to be sure
11:40 dbs but looks good
11:41 dbs in the mean time, if any QP-knowledgeable folks would care to figure out why a search for "big : bad : groovy" results in 6 "text-search ':*' contains no lexemes" errors, that would be teh awesome :)
11:41 rfrasur I just have to say, y'all are the sanest, least anger/anxiety/frustration-producing group of people that I deal with (excepting my family).  It may be a very low bar, but thanks anyways.
11:42 eeevil dbs: that's a fair trade ... I'll look
11:45 dbs eeevil: I spent some time trying to protect empty queries from reaching QP in Search/Biblio.pm, but realized that testing with srfsh with queries like "" or ":*" weren't representative of what actually gets passed in from TPAC (" pref_ou(103)" and the like appended to the end)
11:45 dbs So I think ultimately QP is the answer :/
11:46 jdouma joined #evergreen
11:47 eeevil yeah ... I think I see where it's coming from. I'm trying to think of a reason why we would want to allow a bare ":" as an atom
11:47 kmlussier Heads up. The web team meeting will be starting here in 13 minutes.
11:47 dbs irc_meetings++
11:47 rfrasur kmlussier++
11:47 eeevil dbs: I think we can probably throw :s away
11:48 rfrasur (but it's such a great emoticon)
11:48 jeff_ rfrasur++
11:48 dbs eeevil: in phrase-searches too?
11:49 dbs (in the real world, most of the bare " : " come from copying/pasting a title into a search box)
11:49 eeevil dbs: are the :s in "value" for you? (I'm sure you have this documented on a bug ... /me goes to look)
11:50 dbs eeevil: no, there's no bug, I was researching / bashing my head yesterday
11:51 dbs eeevil: and yes, the :s are in "value"
11:53 * dbs recreates a local concerto test database - see "Critical entertainments : music old and new" as an example
11:54 dbs "La canzone italiana del Novecento" includes 2 " : " segments in its title
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12:01 bshum kmlussier: Hmm, time?  :)
12:01 * bshum doesn't know who else is even here...
12:01 mrpeters I'm struggling with a report template erroring out -- http://pastebin.com/9fzXvftt --- ERROR:  missing FROM-clause entry for table "c81eb2383728e04c5dfea5082027d800"
12:01 mrpeters LINE 17:   HAVING "c81eb2383728e04c5dfea5082027d800"."id" <= '10'
12:02 * rfrasur is here.
12:02 kmlussier #startmeeting Evergreen Web Team Meeting 2013-06-26.
12:02 pinesol_green Meeting started Wed Jun 26 12:02:13 2013 US/Eastern.  The chair is kmlussier. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
12:02 pinesol_green Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
12:02 pinesol_green The meeting name has been set to 'evergreen_web_team_meeting_2013_06_26_'
12:02 mrpeters client gives DBD::Pg::st execute failed: ERROR: missing FROM-clause entry for table "c81eb2383728e04c5dfea5082027d800" LINE 17: HAVING "c81eb2383728e04c5dfea5082027d800"."id" <= '10' ^ at ./clark-kent.pl line 217.
12:02 kmlussier Sorry, I had to refresh my memory on the meetbot commands.
12:02 mrpeters oops....sorry, ignore me until after meeting
12:02 eeevil dbs: thanks. re phrases, those are separate from the tsquery stuff ... and with that, I'll hush for the meeting
12:02 bshum kmlussier++
12:03 kmlussier Agenda is available at http://evergreen-ils.org/dokuwiki/doku.​php?id=webteam:meetings:agenda:2013-06
12:03 kmlussier We'll start with introductions.
12:03 kmlussier #info kmlussier is Kathy Lussier, MassLNC
12:04 bshum #info bshum is Ben Shum, Bibliomation
12:04 Rogan_ #info Rogan is Rogan Hamby, SCLENDS
12:04 rfrasur #info rfrasur is Ruth Frasur, EG Indiana (Hagerstown Library)
12:05 kmlussier That's 4. I guess that's a quorum. ;)
12:05 moodaepo #info moodaepo is Anoop Atre (ESI)
12:05 * phasefx watches :)
12:05 kmlussier Feel free to keep introducing yourselves as we move on to the next agenda item
12:05 kmlussier #topic Action Items from Last Meeting
12:06 kmlussier #info bshum to start planning of transition to wiki.evergreen-ils.org
12:06 kmlussier bshum: any updates?
12:06 bshum Sure.
12:07 bshum So there's been some transition efforts underway for the past while.
12:07 bshum wiki.evergreen-ils.org is actually already setup as a new virtualhost entry and luckily for us dokuwiki wasn't set with any prepared paths.
12:07 bshum So it'll "just work"
12:07 bshum The big thing to do next is figuring out how to handle the top header.
12:07 bshum Since it still points back at the main site.
12:08 bshum My recommendation is that moving forward we have to 1) update the dokuwiki to the latest version, and 2) prepare a new theme with new header to distinguish the wiki from other sites used for Evergreen.
12:09 moodaepo bshum: As we've chatted I agree with your proposal. So +1
12:09 kmlussier So, for recommendation 2, the wiki would look different from other parts of the Evergreen site. Is that right?
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12:09 Rogan_ I like the idea of the wiki appearing different.
12:10 * rfrasur agrees with likiing that idea
12:10 moodaepo kmlussier: Correct.
12:10 Rogan_ I think we've had issues with the two kinds of content getting confused in people's minds.  (and frankly with vendors)
12:10 moodaepo Rogan_: That was what bshum was thinking too.
12:10 kmlussier +1 on both recommendations from me.
12:11 kmlussier Are there any objections?
12:11 stevenyvr2 joined #evergreen
12:11 bshum Related to the new wiki site approach, we've done the same for several other components.
12:11 bshum (interjecting some update information while I'm still here)
12:12 bshum Specifially, the piwik installation was updated to new address webstats.evergreen-ils.org
12:12 bshum And new IRC logs will eventually be completed at irc.evergreen-ils.org
12:12 bshum Presently, the IRC logging only shows through June when it was first setup.  I'm working on porting all our old log content to the new log storage.
12:13 bshum The thinking here is finding the best tool for the job if we can, and also making the existing site to be less entangled to make it easier to replace.
12:13 bshum That's all from me.  Thanks folks, and stay tuned.
12:13 kmlussier bshum++
12:14 Rogan_ bshum++
12:14 kmlussier bshum: to follow up with your 2 recommendations, do you need help from anyone or are you just going to move ahead with what you're doing?
12:15 bshum kmlussier: For the theme, I know that when we install the update for dokuwiki, it'll likely overwrite our existing theme style and we'll have to make a fresh one.  The big thing to decide is when to make the cutover.
12:15 bshum kmlussier: So the 2 recommendations will occur at the same time.
12:15 bshum Whenever we decide to do it.
12:15 bshum Though, the issue is that our existing website embeds wiki pages throughout.
12:16 moodaepo bshum: previously we have just upgraded the wiki at will this time the only difference will be the theme change
12:16 bshum So we probably don't want to do it without changing all the existing site pages first so that we're not embedding what we don't need.
12:16 kmlussier Is this something that needs to be done before cutting over to Wordpress for the main site?
12:16 moodaepo kmlussier: I'd say we should do it before the cut over to WP
12:16 kmlussier So I got that backwards, then.
12:17 bshum Maybe around the same time actually is what I was thinking.  I'd worry about updating all the existing site content to wrap around embedded wiki pages.
12:17 bshum The main site now uses several wiki pages in place of PHP pages.
12:17 moodaepo bshum: I don't recall any embedding..we can check again
12:17 bshum So if we alter the theme and remove the headers/menus, it'll be difficult for folks moving back and forth between pages.
12:17 moodaepo aah I see what you mean..it's not embedded but just in use
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12:18 bshum Sorry, yes, in use.
12:18 bshum It looks seamless but that's just trickery.
12:18 moodaepo seamless_trickery++
12:18 rfrasur (I apologize for not interacting more.  phone call)
12:19 kmlussier Maybe we need to address the timing question, then, after we talk about the wordpress cutover (next action item.)
12:19 Rogan_ sounds good
12:19 bshum +1
12:19 moodaepo kmlussier: I was thinking the same. +1
12:20 kmlussier #info moodaepo to continue working on test site
12:20 kmlussier Though I think bshum has been working on this one too.
12:20 kmlussier Who wants to give an update?
12:20 bshum I'm multi-tasking :)
12:20 moodaepo bshum has taken on doing a test site [ http://evergreener.net/ ] ..I've just been providing him with support right now. We did discuss plans on moving forward and will be emailing it to the list soon for feedback.
12:20 moodaepo bshum++
12:21 kmlussier It's pretty!
12:21 bshum The fun thing we learned while working on the wordpress site prototype is dealing with non-javascript-enabled browsers.
12:21 bshum There are lots of pretty themes, but not all of them function well without javascript-enabled.
12:22 bshum While not a complete dealbreaker, the hope was to avoid creating situations where some users might not get a functional website.
12:22 kmlussier So the next step is to e-mail the list? Is that bshum or moodaepo?
12:23 moodaepo kmlussier: I can do that if bshum doesn't raise his hands :)
12:23 moodaepo or even one hand :)
12:23 kmlussier moodaepo++
12:23 bshum I'd volunteer, but my email isn't trustworthy right now.
12:24 kmlussier #action moodaepo to e-mail link to test site to the list for feedback.
12:24 kmlussier moodaepo: That's the general list, right?
12:24 Rogan_ I would say yes.
12:24 moodaepo kmlussier: Yup
12:25 kmlussier Anything else before we move on to the next action item?
12:25 moodaepo kmlussier: Should I tack on a cut off date discussion to that email?
12:26 kmlussier moodaepo: Probably not a bad idea. Give a couple of weeks for discussion?
12:26 moodaepo Ok
12:26 kmlussier #info StephenGWills to work on member directory/map for web site.
12:26 bshum Since Steve's not here, defer to next meeting?
12:26 kmlussier It looks like StephenGWills, isn't here today, so we'll need to defer that to the next meeting.
12:27 kmlussier Yeah, what bshum said.
12:27 kmlussier #action StephenGWills to work on member directory/map for web site.
12:27 kmlussier #info hbrennan and kmlussier to work on layout/design issues for downloads page.
12:27 kmlussier I also would like to defer that to the next meeting.
12:27 kmlussier #action hbrennan and kmlussier to work on layout/design issues for downloads page.
12:28 kmlussier #info kmlussier to start discussion about when to meet / how to meet / why to meet / and where to meet.
12:28 kmlussier My discussion on this was to basically say that we should use the last Doodle poll to set a regular meeting day. So that would be 12 p.m. EDT on the fourth Thursday of the month.
12:29 kmlussier However, there aren't many people here today. I don't know if it's because it's a bad meeting time or because people forgot.
12:29 bshum For the record, I will state now and forever that lunchtime noon meetings are not happy fit for me personally.
12:29 bshum And I wonder if we're missing pacific time folks from this meeting because of the "early" time
12:29 kmlussier Correction: fourth Wednesday of the month.
12:29 rfrasur bshum++
12:30 Rogan_ I'm eating lunch during it but I can understand Ben's position.
12:30 * rfrasur just realized it was lunch time.
12:30 kmlussier I can't do a meeting later in the afternoon on the fourth Wednesday.
12:30 kmlussier Maybe we should try again with the next Doodle? :)
12:30 * kmlussier will refrain from adding a noon time block on the Doodle.
12:31 kmlussier Of course, 1 or 2 p.m. on the East Coast is noon somewhere else.
12:31 moodaepo kmlussier: I was just going to say..noon time PST? heh
12:31 bshum Heh, it's not a great argument for the noon time just for me.  :)
12:32 kmlussier #action kmlussier will send out another Doodle to schedule a regular meeting time.
12:32 bshum But I do think it's worth considering what works better for folks in the other timezones.
12:32 bshum If we can.
12:32 bshum It's sort of why we don't have community meetings in AM for EST.
12:32 rfrasur again, to the general list? kmlussier
12:32 kmlussier rfrasur: Yes, absolutely.
12:33 kmlussier Shall we move on to New Business?
12:33 bshum kmlussier++
12:33 kmlussier #topic Finding volunteers to be content editors and/or website librarians
12:33 kmlussier I think gmcharlt originally added that topic to the May agenda?
12:33 Rogan_ Blaming it on gmcharlt is a good policy in general.
12:34 Rogan_ But I may have been guilty as well.
12:34 gmcharlt heh
12:34 * rfrasur will blame gmcharlt after the meeting
12:34 Rogan_ I'm willing to fill in a role in this capacity but we shouldn't be reliant on one or two people.  I'm not saying what the right size is though.
12:35 rfrasur When you refer to content editing, it seems like that could get a pretty broad amount of volunteerism depending on WHAT content is being edited.
12:35 Meliss joined #evergreen
12:35 rfrasur also, what does "website librarian" mean?
12:36 moodaepo rfrasur++
12:36 gmcharlt my general idea is that the website librarian (or whatever we choose to call the position) is somebody who takes responsiblity for the overall content
12:36 kmlussier When I put out an e-mail announcing the May meeting, I heard from a couple of people who were interested in pitching in on content. But it might be useful to have a list of specific areas where we need help.
12:36 gmcharlt i.e., does things like fixes typos across the board, makes text and style consistent
12:36 Rogan_ A co-ordinator?  What I would call a managing editor?
12:36 gmcharlt but more importantly, actively looks for content to add and folks to write it
12:37 rfrasur ur....that's a TON of stuff
12:37 gmcharlt Rogan_: managing editor verging on editor-in-chief, perhaps
12:37 rfrasur I don't think that 1 or 2 people COULD do it justice on a part-time volunteer basis.
12:37 Rogan_ But, so is any big project, that's why you need someone who takes a project manager like position for it.
12:37 gmcharlt but I'd figure that the actual role would depend on what whoever volunteers for it would be willing to do
12:38 rfrasur Rogan_:totally agree
12:38 gmcharlt and with the website as is .. I don't think the time committment would be onerous
12:38 collum joined #evergreen
12:38 kmlussier I think it's a good idea if we can find the right volunteer.
12:38 gmcharlt though obviously an  energetic web librarian/editor/WEB EMPEROR could do more
12:38 Rogan_ I concur with the idea of an editor in chief and a few managing editors who coordinate volunteers.
12:39 rfrasur ohhh, web emperor
12:39 rfrasur with a sceptor
12:39 rfrasur hmm
12:39 rfrasur I dopn
12:39 rfrasur I don't think ANY of that is spelled right
12:39 Rogan_ Kathy accepted 'el presidente for life' but that was just of the web team, not the web site itself so I suppose it's viable.
12:39 * kmlussier accepted web team meeting scheduler.
12:40 Rogan_ semantics :)
12:40 rfrasur anyway, does this mean that a call for volunteers will go out for content editors and an emperor and then there'll be some meeting(s) to coordinate what that's actually going to mean?
12:40 kmlussier It sounds like the appropriate action item is for somebody to send an e-mail to the list making the position sound as appealing as possible.
12:40 Rogan_ Anyway ... is that kind of organization what we're discussing?
12:41 rfrasur kmlussier++
12:41 Rogan_ +1
12:41 rfrasur Rogan_:I think so?
12:41 rfrasur +1
12:42 kmlussier Who wants to send the message? gmcharlt? Rogan_?
12:42 Rogan_ Any dissenting views on proceeding with proposing that structure and looking for volunteers?
12:42 Rogan_ I'm willing to send the message.
12:42 gmcharlt +1
12:42 kmlussier Just one question first.
12:43 kmlussier Should we wait until we cut over to the WordPress site? When it will be easier for these content editors to make those updates?
12:43 rfrasur fwiw, I think so
12:43 Rogan_ I think we should go ahead and solicit and let editors be aware of the process though they may not start until the cut over.
12:43 moodaepo kmlussier: +1
12:44 rfrasur kmlussier: +1
12:44 kmlussier So that's 2 for waiting and 1 for doing it right away?
12:44 rfrasur I think we can do both
12:44 * gmcharlt leans towards asking now
12:45 bshum I think it's worth asking for folks to start thinking it over.  But without a real site for them to work with / look at, it might be harder to visualize.
12:45 gmcharlt particularly if it turns up somebody who is already familiar with WP and who might have an opinion on permissions and plugins and so forth
12:45 rfrasur like Rogan described.  Do a call-out now letting potentials know that there'll be a transition and they may not begin until after the transition
12:45 bshum I say that as someone who started on the existing website by poking other folks with spelling corrections though :)
12:45 Rogan_ Let's remember that the process of solicitation may take a while as people ask questions (and good people will ask questions before committing) so some lead time is good.
12:45 kmlussier Since Rogan_ volunteered, I have faith he can sell it the right way if he does it right away.
12:45 rfrasur bshum: that's true
12:45 bshum but it never hurts to ask.
12:45 moodaepo Rogan_++
12:45 Rogan_ Not everyone jumps in as bravely as Ben. :)
12:46 bshum And asking in a broader forum seems like a good idea.
12:46 rfrasur bshum++
12:46 * bshum recalls past volunteer looking that didn't make it as far and wide, maybe.
12:46 kmlussier #action Rogan_ to send e-mail to general list seeking volunteers for content editors / website librarians.
12:46 kmlussier Rogan_: If you don't hear from anyone when you put out the call from volunteers, I can follow up with people who asked how they could help with the web site.
12:46 * bshum quietly whispers, "Or we cut over sooner than later, and we just throw people into the deep end now!"
12:46 Rogan_ And I will outline what we're looking to do in broad strokes of how this is an opportunity for new blood who want to make a real impact on the community as well.
12:47 rfrasur I will say that whatever comes through the Open-ILS listserv with regard to this, I'll be sending through our consortium support listserv
12:47 kmlussier All of these e-mails to the general list makes we wonder if there's even a need for a web team list.
12:47 kmlussier But that can be an agenda item for another meeting.
12:47 kmlussier Anything else on this topic?
12:47 bshum Rogan_++
12:48 rfrasur (or the general listserv...not support...but yeah)
12:48 rfrasur Rogan_++
12:48 kmlussier Rogan_++ indeed
12:48 kmlussier #topic Future of the prototype sites (http://drupal.evergreen-ils.org/ & http://eg13.galecia.com/) and of http://rscel.org
12:48 kmlussier Lori asked me to add this topic to the agenda.
12:49 Rogan_ The drupal site I think can go.  Personal opinion though I'm glad for the investigation and work that team did.
12:49 Rogan_ It was very informative.
12:50 kmlussier bshum was noticing today that it looks like most of RSCEL has been taken down.
12:50 moodaepo kmlussier: I'd like to archive them. Even if it's not running live a copy of the sites would be good to have.
12:50 rfrasur moodaepo++
12:50 moodaepo kmlussier: Really? That's sad..considering public grant money was used to create that information.
12:51 kmlussier moodaepo: The directory is still there.
12:51 Rogan_ RSCEL was a good idea but it's functions that are worth having should probably be discussed as part of the community site.
12:51 kmlussier link: http://rscel.org/
12:51 kmlussier I thought there was some useful content on RSCEL. But, now that it's not there, it's hard to know what we might want to carry over.
12:52 Rogan_ I make a motion to archive them if we can but to let them rest in peace.
12:52 kmlussier Rogan_: The prototypes and rscel?
12:53 kmlussier Is there any new content on the prototypes that needs to be archived?
12:53 Rogan_ Yes.  I think RSCEL had some good ideas but it wasn't well adopted and the specific content ... well, I'd start over.
12:53 kmlussier link: http://drupal.evergreen-ils.org/
12:54 bshum I don't think we need to keep the drupal prototypes around.
12:54 kmlussier link: http://eg13.galecia.com/
12:54 bshum The site map design I think is reflected in the documents on the webteam pages if I recall
12:54 kmlussier I would be in favor of archiving RSCEL (if it hasn't been done already), but letting the prototypes go.
12:55 Rogan_ If we're confidant there's nothing to keep on the prototypes I'm fine with skipping archives of them.
12:55 kmlussier Though I do commend Lori for all the work she put into those prototypes.
12:55 Rogan_ I trust Ben's judgement on that.
12:55 moodaepo kmlussier: Ok so if we can get the RSCEL content for archiving easily then let's do it if not oh well. I agree with bshum and your idea about letting the prototypes go.
12:56 Rogan_ So, motion now amended to get rid of prototypes and archive RSCEL site.
12:56 kmlussier +1
12:56 rfrasur +1
12:56 moodaepo +1
12:56 bshum +1
12:57 Rogan_ Since it's voting I guess I should +1 myself.
12:57 Rogan_ +1
12:57 kmlussier #agree Ask Lori to archive RSCEL if it can be done easily and discontinue the prototype sites.
12:57 kmlussier Anything else on this topic?
12:58 kmlussier #topic 2014 Conference web site
12:58 kmlussier At the last meeting, I mentioned that I was interested in having the community web site host the 2014 conference web site.
12:59 kmlussier In talking to bshum, we were thinking we should hold off until the site is cut over to the WordPress site.
12:59 moodaepo kmlussier: Would you want to wait till the WP cutover is done?
13:00 bshum Just a matter of when things need to happen all around.
13:00 moodaepo I think that would influence the cut over date.
13:00 kmlussier So we were shooting for an August 1 date for the conference site, but I think that can be pushed back a bit to get the WordPress work done.
13:01 kmlussier But, yeah, we would need to launch it this summer.
13:01 kmlussier If that seems like too quick of a cutover time, I could always explore other avenues. But I do like the idea of the conference information being available on the community site.
13:02 * bshum likes "quick"
13:02 bshum But I live life dangerously.
13:02 * kmlussier likes "quick" took, but I'm not doing the work.
13:02 moodaepo kmlussier: How about in the email to be sent out I'll mention this date and how we think it's pretty realistic. With all the work bshum has done and both of us discussing the transition I think Aug 1st might be possible.
13:02 phasefx be nice if we could archive past conference sites too
13:03 rfrasur bshum: you're so dangerous
13:03 kmlussier moodaepo++ I like that idea.
13:03 rfrasur phasefx++
13:03 moodaepo phasefx++ I tried asking for archives while back but didn't hear back
13:03 kmlussier phasefx: Yeah, the ones that are still up.
13:03 bshum I'd agree about the scope of work, but think that we won't be able to fully flesh out the entire site in mockups before we move.  There is always going to be loose ends with content or content that needs revision.
13:04 bshum So I'd say once we know roughly the direction we need to head, we cut over and then work harder on the necessary content fixes.
13:04 bshum But I live life dangerously.
13:04 moodaepo Yes we should ask for the ones that are up.
13:05 moodaepo kmlussier: So I'll tack that on to the email and a +1 to host the conference website on the community site.
13:05 kmlussier OK, then, I'll hold tight on that front, and we'll look at making August 1 the target transition date.
13:05 kmlussier moodaepo and bshum: If there's any way the rest of us can help with this, please give us a shout out!
13:05 bshum +1 to conference page on the community site.
13:05 rfrasur kmlussier++
13:05 bshum Maybe not "conference site" per say
13:05 bshum :D
13:05 bshum But now I'm quibbling over language.
13:05 kmlussier We're 5 minutes past the hour mark? Anything else?
13:05 bshum Carry on, please.
13:06 kmlussier #endmeeting
13:06 pinesol_green Meeting ended Wed Jun 26 13:06:30 2013 US/Eastern.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
13:06 pinesol_green Minutes:        http://evergreen-ils.org/meetings/evergr​een/2013/evergreen.2013-06-26-12.02.html
13:06 pinesol_green Minutes (text): http://evergreen-ils.org/meetings/evergr​een/2013/evergreen.2013-06-26-12.02.txt
13:06 pinesol_green Log:            http://evergreen-ils.org/meetings/evergree​n/2013/evergreen.2013-06-26-12.02.log.html
13:06 moodaepo kmlussier++
13:07 Rogan_ Thanks Kathy.  You've done an excellent job pushing these meetings forward.
13:07 bshum kmlussier++
13:13 bkuhn joined #evergreen
13:16 * dbs notes, post-meeting, that "wget -mpckE --wait 1 rscel.evergreen-ils.org" (adjust for conference sites, etc) is a reasonable way of grabbing the content of a site, if you don't have access to the source (or the source is painful to work with)
13:16 rfrasur oh yeah
13:16 rfrasur @blame gmcharlt
13:16 pinesol_green rfrasur: gmcharlt is why we can never have nice things!
13:17 gmcharlt ouch!
13:17 gmcharlt ;)
13:17 rfrasur @praise gmcharlt
13:17 * pinesol_green gmcharlt is kind and patient to newbies
13:17 * rfrasur agrees
13:17 rfrasur karmic balance
13:19 dbs gmcharlt's kindness and patience to newbies is why we can never have nice things
13:21 rfrasur dbs++
13:22 rfrasur isn't that the truth?
13:22 rfrasur bshum: can you link to the wordpress site?
13:22 bshum rfrasur: Yes-ish.  Though I'm going to have a chat with moodaepo about setting up a proper evergreen-ils.org hostname for it. Maybe wp.evergreen-ils.org
13:23 bshum Mostly because he linked initially to my private web server :D
13:24 bshum I'll get right back to you when it's ready.
13:28 rfrasur rock on
13:36 kbeswick joined #evergreen
13:37 b_sage joined #evergreen
13:39 DPearl Event/trigger question.  I have created a clone of the hold available email event (consortium-level) for a library that wants to include a special message in the email. When testing, the first try got the library's handler; the second try got the consortium handler. I can see why this might have happened, but it seems to me to be incorrect behavior (going up a level). Or is this desirable?
13:42 bshum DPearl: So, in practice, you cannot have both a consortium level hold available and also a library specific one.
13:42 bshum Because the event will fire off both.
13:42 bshum or at least, that's been my experience.
13:43 bshum So in our consortium, we had to deactivate all our consortium ones and have unique A/T events for each library individually.
13:43 bshum That sort of granularity for A/T where it'll pick the most applicable and do just that doesn't apply here.
13:44 bshum It'll fire off anything it can.
13:44 rfrasur (yet)
13:44 Rogan_ Or do like SCLENDS and only do consortium level messages :)
13:44 * bshum is only wishng made it true.
13:44 bshum :(
13:44 bshum *If only
13:44 pastebot "DPearl" at 204.193.129.146 pasted "wiki guide to action triggers excerpt" (4 lines) at http://paste.evergreen-ils.org/28
13:45 DPearl bshum: I thought the idea was that the lowest-level one wins.
13:46 bshum DPearl: Yeah, not in action triggers.
13:46 bshum That applies for most everything else though, in policies, etc.
13:46 dbs gawd, mirroring drupal-based websites via wget can be an exercise in "how many variations of the same basic URL with different 'order_by' and 'sort_field' GET params can you come up with"
13:47 bshum But with action triggers, the defining event is what causes it to fire off.  There's no difference between a CONS event and the library specific event.
13:47 bshum Both events qualify and get fired off by the trigger
13:47 bshum Which is that the hold is available.
13:47 bshum Well, both events should trigger the same way :)
13:47 DPearl bshum: That's unfortunate.
13:47 bshum DPearl: Welcome to A/T :D
13:48 DPearl bshum: Hah!
13:48 phasefx has there been any itch to change that? :)
13:48 bshum I've lived with that since we first set them up in 2009 or so
13:48 phasefx events would have to have context orgs associated with them
13:48 bshum Sure, I'd imagine people would like that, but I also imagine there's probably other more urgent itches to scratch :(
13:49 rfrasur phasefx: it seems there might be an itch.  Is there a bug in launchpad?
13:49 phasefx fixing search in launchpad is another itch :-/
13:49 bshum DPearl: In the meantime, you have two options.  Well, three.
13:49 kmlussier phasefx: There is definitely an itch.
13:49 * rfrasur laughs out loud at/with phasefx
13:49 bshum 1)  Create indiividual A/T events for hold available for every library in the consortium.
13:50 DPearl bshum: Yagh!
13:50 * rfrasur imagines this w/ 100+ libs in Indiana consortium
13:50 kmlussier DPearl: So that would be, what, 150 libraries?
13:50 bshum 2)  You could try adapting the primary template to look for variables.
13:50 DPearl bshum: Yeah. Conditional code.
13:50 bshum Like usr.home_ou = X, use this text, else, the default
13:50 bshum 3) Tell the library who wants custom wording to suck it :)
13:51 rfrasur bshum++++++++++++++++++++++++++
13:51 bshum And pay for new development.
13:51 bshum Or not be whiny about having their words.
13:51 bshum But I'm unusually flip about this today.  Please carry on productively.
13:51 DPearl bshum: I like #3 in principle, but they really need it.  Thanks. I'm going with #2.
13:51 kmlussier bshum needs a vacation.
13:51 kmlussier Wait, bshum is on vacation!
13:52 bshum kmlussier: A vacation from my vacation?
13:52 dbs huh. I seem to remember http://rscel.evergreen-ils.org/ having way more content than a list of evergreen libraries.
13:52 rfrasur DPearl++ # so professional, you are
13:52 kmlussier dbs: Yes, it did.
13:52 phasefx there was a feature comparison thing with Koha and EG
13:52 bshum And migration tips/facts.
13:52 dbs :/
13:53 bshum DPearl: Good luck.  #1 isn't really a good choice.  But it's the one our consortium lives with now.
13:53 kmlussier dbs: http://web.archive.org/web/20110​924044856/http://www.rscel.org/
13:53 dbs bshum / DPearl : we took bshum's option 2 ages ago for some of our triggers (emails delivered in different languages depending on user preference, falling back to users' home library preference)
13:53 kmlussier dbs: Not that you can archive anything from that, but I was looking at it today to see what was there.
13:54 kmlussier phasefx: the feature comparison is on the galecia web site.
13:55 dbs kmlussier: huh, even as recent as June 16th, 2013 there was more content than today
13:55 dbs http://web.archive.org/web/201​30616064535/http://rscel.org/
13:56 kmlussier dbs: Yeah, I'm going to follow up with Lori. She had sent a message to the web team list a while back asking if she should take it down, and moodaepo recommended that she archive it. I'm hoping she was able to do the archive option.
13:57 * bshum only has 429 active A/T definitions in his database.
13:57 mllewellyn1 joined #evergreen
13:57 bshum That's not that many right?  :)
13:57 rfrasur bshum: that's it? slacker
13:58 rfrasur kmlussier: are you going to be MIA during ALA?
13:58 bshum rfrasur: Lucky for us, not every library wanted to have 4+ notices.
13:58 rfrasur bshum: only a few?
13:59 kmlussier rfrasur: Most likely. I have all next week off too.
13:59 bshum About a dozen have 7.
13:59 rfrasur kmlussier: good to know and have a great time
13:59 bshum Two dozen more with 6 or so
13:59 bshum One with 3.
13:59 bshum They have the least.
13:59 rfrasur bshum: hmm, that seems like there should be a flog involved or something.
14:00 bshum It's a pro/con thing
14:00 rfrasur "you want what notice? 5 strikes"
14:00 bshum Pro:  Evergreen is awesome and can do almost anything you might want.
14:00 bshum Con:  Supporting said awesomeness may drive you mad.
14:00 rfrasur con: it requires someone that knows more than most people to coordinate the awesome
14:01 rfrasur heck, I didn't know action triggers existed before eg13....which was probably for the best.
14:01 bshum Pro:  Anybody can learn / improve on it because it's open source!
14:01 bshum :D
14:01 rfrasur (it was all magic)
14:02 rfrasur con: anybody can learn / "improve" on it because it's open source :-\
14:02 bshum Haha
14:02 bshum rfrasur++
14:03 bshum To be honest, I remember dreading the script work we were going to be doing before A/T were introduced in 1.6 or whatnot.
14:03 rfrasur I was in a state of blissful ignorance at that point
14:04 bshum So while it's not perfect, I still like it more than what might have been before it was added.
14:04 phasefx as long as EG is better able to manage complexity than other applications, I'm happy
14:04 * rfrasur just showed up for the show and watched the magicians
14:04 bshum Like I do with most "features"
14:04 * bshum takes special exception to parts.
14:04 rfrasur meh, I don't care if it has issues.  I flippin' love EG.
14:05 phasefx we still need a periodic fix-someone's-pet-peeve-day
14:05 kmlussier bshum: Hey! Leave parts alone!
14:05 rfrasur parts are annoying and important
14:05 rfrasur kmlussier++
14:05 kmlussier I fear that parts are everyone's pet peeve. :(
14:06 bshum kmlussier: But it wouldn't be a full week without me saying something (negative) about parts.
14:06 bshum :)
14:06 phasefx but they're optional...
14:06 rfrasur speaking of....the blog feed...is the date issue fixed/in process?
14:06 dbs rfrasur: http://planet.evergreen-ils.org/ ?
14:06 dbs I ripped Equinox News out again because of their date wackiness
14:07 rfrasur okay, so it's only Equinox that's not showing up (sorry to Equinox)
14:07 rfrasur loverly
14:08 dbs the other problem was that my server ran out of space (for a number of other reasons) and it took a day and a half for me to get around to resolving it. because dinner & drink night.
14:09 * rfrasur chuckles
14:09 dbs speaking of which... if the web team wants to take over the planet, I'm happy to support the transfer :)
14:09 rfrasur please note, I didn't check it the other day.  I'm lazy and hadn't found the link yet to check it on my own.
14:10 bshum dbs: Maybe once we get the super cool new web server that csharp has dangled in front of us :)
14:10 bshum Or maybe if some of us ever get around to talking to OSUOSL...
14:15 rfrasur jboyer-isl: did we just take a dive?
14:16 bshum rfrasur: Let me know if you can see this:  http://wp.evergreen-ils.org
14:17 rfrasur bshum: yes
14:19 rfrasur yay! subdomain!
14:19 rfrasur (that was a little more enthusiastic than it probably had to be)
14:20 * Dyrcona is in a maze of 19,679 MARC records, each one just like the last.
14:21 rfrasur Dyrcona: that sounds like the makings of a Pink Floyd video
14:23 bshum moodaepo: FYI, I just updated the wordpress install on production to the latest release. Along with plugin and theme updates.
14:24 bshum Oh nice.....
14:24 bshum Random slider where there wasn't one before
14:24 * bshum hates Evolve theme
14:25 jboyer-isl More of a sneeze. It's leveling out on it's own.
14:27 rfrasur jboyer-isl: thank you and I see the evidence of leveling.
14:29 rfrasur jboyer-isl: another unrelated question...has there been any thought to using an online form for patron merge requests rather than the whole "put it in a spreadsheet and email it" thing?
14:29 rfrasur (or has it already been done and I just missed it like usual?)
14:29 jboyer-isl I haven't heard anything, but I rarely hear about those.
14:30 csharp bshum: don't mean to dangle - I just haven't had a moment post-vacation to get up to QTS and install the rest of the hardware ;-)
14:30 rfrasur is that Bob or Adam?
14:30 rfrasur or someone completely different?
14:30 bshum csharp: I'm not poking (hard).  We appreciate all the work and generosity we get with hosting space with you folks :)
14:31 csharp no prob ;-)
14:31 jboyer-isl Bob or I will do them, but only one or two have come in since I've been here.
14:32 mrpeters rfrasur: we spec'd out a way of automating that process
14:32 mrpeters the quote was astronomical
14:33 mrpeters we wanted an interface where libraries could "queue up" merge requests and the other library would be notified to sign in and approve/deny the request
14:33 rfrasur mrpeters: was there an argument against using a Google form because of patron info or something?
14:33 mrpeters im sure ISL has the original quote for that, i of course dont
14:40 rfrasur There has to be a way to do it that doesn't cost an arm and a leg.
14:41 dbs Google Forms++
14:41 * rfrasur loves them...not as much as a child, but as much as a dog.
14:41 * rfrasur likes dogs
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15:40 eeevil dbs: I've fixed the date issues (including then improbable date) in the news feed
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15:57 dbs eeevil++
15:57 dbs will reenable
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16:25 pastebot "hopkinsju" at 204.193.129.146 pasted "Seeing this error when upgrading" (5 lines) at http://paste.evergreen-ils.org/29
16:25 hopkinsju Thanks pastebot. Good lookin' out.
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16:29 bshum hopkinsju: Sounds like you have some unexpected stuff in your database that's still relying on tsearch2 then.
16:29 bshum function tsvector_concat(public.tsvector,public.tsvector) is what it's complaining about there.
16:37 hopkinsju Yeah, I wonder what that would be. I've not done anything that depends on it.
16:37 hopkinsju Could be something left over from our beginning when Equinox got us started.
16:39 bshum hopkinsju: Took me a few minutes, but sure enough I have public.tsvector_concat hanging around my database still.  And I did drop the extension, hmm
16:44 hopkinsju I was pulled away from this, so I haven't looked myself. The "HINT: Use DROP ... CASCADE" would lead me to believe that the script isn't already doing that :)
16:44 hopkinsju Maybe it's that simple.
16:44 bshum It should be.
16:44 bshum And it looks like that's a legacy function that no longer exists in Evergreen master
16:44 bshum Looks like it was removed ages ago back in subversion times
16:44 bshum Commit:  6c13880e172da310f00d5131ecc84ab2de2f794c
16:44 pinesol_green [evergreen|miker] Reorder some functions to avoid creation failure on an empty db; remove unused (and installation-killing) tsvector aggregate - <http://git.evergreen-ils.org/?p=​Evergreen.git;a=commit;h=6c13880>
16:45 bshum So it was removed from the base code but not from installations pre-dating April 2011.
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16:46 Dyrcona Heh, run xpath on a 70MB file and lose your computer for 20 minutes.....
16:46 jcamins Dyrcona: it kicked you off IRC?!? That's quite an xpath processor!
16:47 hopkinsju I should probably just drop that extension by hand and re-run the script then. I wish this hadn't taken 65 minutes to fail, lol.
16:47 bshum hopkinsju: Yeah, that's the fun part of the big upgrades.
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16:50 bshum hopkinsju: Out of curiosity, is your function in public or evergreen schema?
16:52 pastebot "hopkinsju" at 204.193.129.146 pasted "\df tsvector_concat" (7 lines) at http://paste.evergreen-ils.org/30
16:52 Dyrcona jcamins: Yeah, apparently the xpath command that comes with XML::XPath is a memory hog. Top said it was using 3.6 GB for a 70 MB file.
16:54 jcamins Dyrcona: I think I will avoid XML::XPath.
16:55 Dyrcona I've had a couple of bad experiences with code written in Perl today. In one case code written in C did a better job faster.
16:58 hopkinsju bshum: Did that answer your questoin? Looks like it's in the evergreen schema.
16:58 bshum hopkinsju: Yes, that helps.  Thanks.
17:05 pastebot "hopkinsju" at 204.193.129.146 pasted "Ok, now this is weird..." (58 lines) at http://paste.evergreen-ils.org/31
17:07 gmcharlt Dyrcona: did you happen to make the binary MARC record available? I'm lhappy to add test cases for MARC::Charset
17:08 Dyrcona gmcharlt: I didn't because I was able to get mostly what I needed from yaz-marcdump, plus I've been having fun with other things today.
17:08 Dyrcona gmcharlt: I think this file is a mix of records in latin 1 and marc 8.
17:08 gmcharlt I'd appreciate having it if you get a spare moment
17:09 Dyrcona OK.
17:09 gmcharlt gotta keep that bestiary stocked ;)
17:10 Dyrcona It's 22MB: 19,679 records total, or do you just want the tricky records?
17:11 hopkinsju bshum: I'm not clear on the effects of that drop cascading. It looks pretty disasterous to me...
17:13 bshum hopkinsju: Well, the surrounding parts of that action are supposed to alter those table columns, I think.
17:13 bshum And then recreate all the views that need to go.
17:13 bshum So by itself, yes, that is probably not good.
17:15 gmcharlt Dyrcona: if you have the tricky ones already separate out, I'll take them, otherwise I'm happy to deal with the whole file
17:16 hopkinsju bshum: Mmm. Ok. I'll restore and re-run just adding CASCADE and see what happens.
17:17 bshum hopkinsju: If you look at the upgrade script, it does drop views and indexes first, then alters the tables.
17:17 bshum Then drops the extension.
17:17 bshum Then recreates everything that needs to be recreated.
17:18 hopkinsju bshum++
17:18 bshum So if it was me
17:18 * hopkinsju is listening
17:18 bshum I would restore, and then maybe drop just the one thing you don't want.
17:18 dbs evergreen.tsvector_concat might be playing a little havoc in there too
17:18 bshum Which is that function.
17:19 dbs The whole point of that upgrade sequence is to get rid of the tsearch2 extension, so that we're sure you're using the built-in full-text search functionality
17:19 gmcharlt also, the Pg search_path could be mis-set
17:19 hopkinsju bshum: I essentially did that. Since everything was running in a transaction nothing ended up happening. I suppose I could have just re-run the script but it's too late now -I'm resyncing
17:19 dbs lots of possibilities for the lucky early adopters
17:19 gmcharlt if you do 'show search_path;' in psql prior to the upgrade, it should be  evergreen, public, pg_catalog
17:20 hopkinsju gmcharlt: Ok, I'll look at my production machine...
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17:20 bshum dbs: Seems to me that tsvector_concat is something we can safely drop away if it's no longer in the code base.  Like so many other functions that get stuck lying around.
17:21 hopkinsju gmcharlt: *dum dum duuuuum* "$user",public
17:21 gmcharlt hopkinsju: k, thought so -- when your test DB finishes resyncing, I suggest running the following before trying the (unmodified) upgrade script:
17:21 gmcharlt ALTER DATABASE evergreen SET search_path TO evergreen, public, pg_catalog;
17:22 bshum gmcharlt++
17:22 hopkinsju gmcharlt: Thank you, I will try that.
17:22 hopkinsju Gonna have to let this go and check back later though. Gotta get my daughter to karate.
17:22 dbs bshum: we want pg_catalog.tsvector_concat, that's the built-in full-text search :)
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17:23 dbs but evergreen and public versions, yeah, they can go
17:23 dbs (subject to any other local customizations that might have dependencies on them, of course)
17:24 bshum dbs: Interestingly, I didn't find pg_catalog.tsvector_concat in my database.
17:24 bshum Or at least it didn't reveal itself to me just now when I was looking for it.
17:24 * bshum looks harder
17:24 mrpeters left #evergreen
17:26 dbs we still have  public.tsvector_concat in ours, but \df pg_catalog.tsvector_concat should show you that that exists too
17:26 bshum Ack, nevermind, I see it now.
17:27 bshum I think it's cause I was logged into my evergreen database only, maybe.
17:27 bshum It's there if I browse for it with my pgadmin :D
17:31 dbs BEGIN; DROP AGGREGATE agg_tsvector(tsvector); DROP FUNCTION public.tsvector_concat(tsvector, tsvector); COMMIT; -- cleared things up for me
17:32 * dbs should probably ensure he didn't just destroy conifer :)
17:32 bshum Bug it and something to add for 2.4.1?  (wait, when is 2.4.1 again?)
17:32 bshum Heh, not destroying things is good ;)
17:33 dbs bshum: I think 2.4.1 is when I sign off on the catapostrophe bug & commits
17:34 dbs or at least waiting for that. /me needs to focus, but first, needs to get home
17:34 bshum dbs++
17:34 bshum dbs: Safe journey and thanks ;)
17:34 hopkinsju dbs++
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18:39 rfrasur bshum: when you appear again - I have a couple thoughts about the website.
18:45 rfrasur I think since OpenSRF is downloaded there, there needs to be a little more explanation for novices about what it is/does
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19:01 rfrasur Also, regarding web forms and Google (specifically for merge requests), is this something that could be modified somehow? http://evergreen-ils.org/blog/?​p=966&amp;cpage=1#comment-76737
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19:54 rfrasur Our technical services people type too much
20:00 gmcharlt rfrasur: fingers falling off in TS?
20:01 rfrasur just extraneous characters in Call #s.  You don't really need to say "Juv Picture Bk" on it.  We know it's for kids, and we know it's a book.
20:02 rfrasur or typing out the entire word "fiction"  (or calling every call # a "Cutter" even if it's not using the Cutter methodology...but that's another story and a battle not worth fighting)
20:03 * rfrasur is preparing inventory lists and seeing what a ridiculous mess the DB still is.
20:03 gmcharlt ah; yeah, call number text that duplicates the meaning of the shelving location does sometimes raise my eyebrow
20:03 gmcharlt and it's always fun if (say) a call number prefix contradicts the shelving location
20:04 rfrasur lol, we have one that's "children's area" and seems to a catch all.  It has non-fiction, leveled readers and some other things - all of which actually have shelving locations.
20:04 rfrasur if I thought they actually could, I'd make certain staff fix it themselves...but I think that might just be a recipe for more crazy mess.
20:05 * rfrasur will fix it and reiterate consistency.
20:05 rfrasur I wonder if it'll help if I preface it with "ya killin' me smalls"
20:06 rfrasur (it could bo SO much worse though)
20:10 bshum rfrasur: Re: OpenSRF, do you mean on the existing site?
20:11 rfrasur nah, on the new one.
20:11 bshum Well... since it's just a stub page with no actual downloads, I was waiting to see what cool ideas hbrennan/kmlussier came up with for the design of the page before I copied the content.
20:11 bshum I think the info on http://evergreen-ils.org/opensrf.php is still relevant.
20:12 bshum Though we might still touch it up a bit more.
20:13 rfrasur That is good.  My thinking was even more simple than that.  (well, that as well)
20:13 rfrasur something like the little blurb that's on the front re: Evergreen...so that people w/ my level of expertise and less (which does exist, hard to believe) can just look and learn w/o clicking into the real meat (unless they want to)
20:16 bshum So you mean you think we need to mention OpenSRF as part of the main site's description?  Or that we need a description that's more generalized about OpenSRF on the OpenSRF page?
20:16 rfrasur the first
20:16 bshum Hmm
20:18 rfrasur I dunno how...and it probably doesn't need to have the same level of importance as Evergreen (for several reasons), but I think it should be briefly mentioned on the front page.
20:18 bshum This is why I never liked having OpenSRF being separate but together :D
20:18 rfrasur well, is it possible to completely separate it?
20:20 * bshum has mixed feelings about that.
20:20 bshum Mostly in that hosting and running the opensrf website and project might require a lot of buy in.
20:20 bshum From everybody who maintains it.
20:21 bshum Poor OpenSRF always seems to be far from my mind anyways :(
20:21 bshum That said, it looks like we own opensrf.org
20:21 bshum :D
20:21 * rfrasur deletes a whole bunch.
20:21 rfrasur you're right.  but...this is my thinking...a little more distilled hopefully
20:22 rfrasur 1. in my mind, there's a desire to draw in less technical people and get them involved.
20:22 bshum Maybe this is better off in some sort of high view architecture kind of page.
20:22 rfrasur 2.  speaking from experience, there has to be information that is enough but not too much right on the front page.
20:23 bshum Like, this is Evergreen, it needs OpenSRF for messages, and PostgreSQL for the database, and runs with an Apache front end?
20:23 rfrasur yes!
20:23 bshum With some nice pictures.
20:23 rfrasur lol, exactly.  draw them in and don't scare them away.
20:23 bshum I could get behind that as a nice sub page.
20:24 * rfrasur would be satisfied with that.
20:24 bshum Not ready to write said page, but I get the concept.
20:24 rfrasur no, I know...and maybe it doesn't necessarily have to be you that writes it (but maybe)
20:25 bshum eeevil: dbs: Hmm, I'm still seeing old 2009 ESI blog posts sneaking into the recent planet feed and confusing me.
20:26 rfrasur so they (whoever they are) may not understand what all that means, but can get a broad idea and have a little higher comfort level in talking w/ people re: more technical stuff.
20:26 * rfrasur saw that with the feed as well.
20:26 rfrasur I was all excited that 2015 was going to be in Grand Rapids...until it was 2009 or 10
20:26 bshum Heh
20:28 bshum rfrasur, I'm going to be modifying the wordpress prototype for a moment.  Want to test out something with a different theme.
20:28 rfrasur I am legitimately excited about the direction the website is going, btw.  I think it'll be much more accessible.
20:28 rfrasur (and not in an ADA sort of way, but maybe that, too)
20:28 rfrasur okie
20:32 bshum Ugh, nope.  That's not a happy theme.  Switching back...
20:33 rfrasur Do you not like the theme you're using?  I think it's pretty good.  Maybe could have a bit of the CSS tweaked (but not much).  I dunno.
20:33 bshum I like it okay.  Some people have commented about how all the white space bothers them.
20:34 bshum But I think that largely depends on what resolution you're looking at the site.
20:36 bshum On my giant monitor, there's plenty of white space on the left/right
20:36 rfrasur I think the white space could be fixed w/ the CSS
20:36 bshum But when I size it to 1024x768, it's not bad.
20:37 bshum Or perfect rather.
20:37 rfrasur lol
20:37 bshum And then if I scale it to look at on my phone, it seems to handle itself reasonably.
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20:38 rfrasur I don't have a monitor set at 1024x768 right now.  takin' a look.
20:38 dbs_mob2 joined #evergreen
20:38 dbs_mob2 bshum: yeah, it validated fine this afternoon but appears to be full of garbage again - http://feedvalidator.org/check.cgi?url=htt​p%3A%2F%2Fesilibrary.com%2Fesi%2Fnews.rss
20:38 bshum rfrasur: A nice trick I learned about the newer Firefox is that you can go to Tools -> Web Developer -> Responsive Design View
20:39 bshum That was thanks to dbs actually who told me about that.
20:39 rfrasur ooo, I need to try that
20:39 bshum Then you can set different viewing sizes that way.
20:39 bshum dbs_mob2: That's too bad.  We'll get there eventually.
20:40 rfrasur um, that's a fun little toy
20:42 rfrasur bbl - time to eat ze burritos
20:44 rfrasur haha!  it's MY desk and I can eat at it if I want! muahahahah
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23:25 paxed morning
23:47 pinesol_green [evergreen|Bob Wicksall] Reduce index bloat involving non-search_field values - <http://git.evergreen-ils.org/?p=​Evergreen.git;a=commit;h=2f9c80a>
23:47 pinesol_green [evergreen|Mike Rylander] Bring back "split-brain" indexing normalization - <http://git.evergreen-ils.org/?p=​Evergreen.git;a=commit;h=68d9a21>
23:47 pinesol_green [evergreen|Dan Scott] Retain index granularity with minimal bloat - <http://git.evergreen-ils.org/?p=​Evergreen.git;a=commit;h=6205d9b>
23:47 pinesol_green [evergreen|Mike Rylander] Create upgrade script for ingest normalization changes - <http://git.evergreen-ils.org/?p=​Evergreen.git;a=commit;h=8508a0d>
23:47 pinesol_green [evergreen|Dan Scott] Sign off on apostrophe upgrade script - <http://git.evergreen-ils.org/?p=​Evergreen.git;a=commit;h=7f1ae7e>

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