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IRC log for #evergreen, 2021-06-08

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All times shown according to the server's local time.

Time Nick Message
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06:00 pinesol News from qatests: Testing Success <http://testing.evergreen-ils.org/~live>
06:53 JBoyer jeffdavis++
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07:55 csharp jeffdavis++
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11:30 Dyrcona Yeahp. Updating records with located URIs is faster on Pg 9.6 than Pg 12. I have the same process running against both db versions, and the one running against 9.6 has pulled ahead even though it was started much later.
11:31 Dyrcona The 9.6 DB is not optimized. The Pg 12 db is optimized to user more, but not all of the hardware.
11:32 pinesol [evergreen|Dan Briem] LP#1930088 Angular catalog: metarecord search returns no results - <http://git.evergreen-ils.org/?p=​Evergreen.git;a=commit;h=7cc12b7>
11:36 Keith_isl joined #evergreen
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11:48 pinesol [evergreen|Dan Briem] LP#1887876 Checkout catalog doesn't load workstation prefs - <http://git.evergreen-ils.org/?p=​Evergreen.git;a=commit;h=b376e5e>
11:50 rjackson_isl_hom joined #evergreen
12:02 pinesol [evergreen|Bill Erickson] LP1910145 Angular Hold Detail Notes & Notifications - <http://git.evergreen-ils.org/?p=​Evergreen.git;a=commit;h=aa3dbae>
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13:29 Dyrcona I should figure out a way to profile some of these updates.
13:30 rhamby Dyrcona : like for indicators of sociopathy?
13:30 rhamby (I might have been watching too much true crime stuff recently.)
13:30 Dyrcona I ran this on a Pg 10 database on our training server, and it finished in about 76 minutes.
13:30 Dyrcona :)
13:31 Dyrcona Anti-social Bibliographic Disorder
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14:30 JBoyer Dev meeting happening in about 30.
14:31 JBoyer Be prepared to Have Opinions about IRC and Evergreen release management. (specifically, would you like to do that.)
14:44 rhamby I have opinions about IRC not so much the other.
14:48 terranm joined #evergreen
14:48 jeff Google Sheets API v3 goes away today. That's annoying. "Published to the Web" will no longer mean that there's a public URL where you can fetch the sheet data, like https://spreadsheets.google.com/feeds/​worksheets/spreadsheetId/public/basic
14:50 jeff I suspect that there are a lot of scripts out there that pull JSON from spreadsheets via those URLs.
14:50 jeff I know we have at least two. :-P
14:50 JBoyer jeff, "we" TADL or "we" Evergreen?
14:51 jeff TADL
14:51 jeff sorry, I should have been more clear :-)
14:52 Dyrcona Well, that's kind of what you get for relying on another corporate entity, no?
14:52 JBoyer Not a problem, just wanted to make sure the next releases weren't going to be painful. :)
14:52 Dyrcona I am conflicted about using Google, etc., for anything.
14:53 JBoyer I don't particularly trust free things, but if people are paying for product X to do Y, the company should be resistant to breaking X. One hopes, anyway.
14:54 Dyrcona True, but I find my trust in just about everything approaching zero lately.
14:54 JBoyer (Free services that is, free software is a whole other thing, obviously.)
14:54 jeff Dyrcona: I wasn't fishing for sympathy, just noting the issue for the potential benefit of others. :-)
14:55 Dyrcona jeff: I figured.
14:55 Dyrcona I was just sayin'...
14:56 jeff ascerbic empathy as a service
14:57 Dyrcona :)
15:00 JBoyer Hey, listen!
15:00 JBoyer #startmeeting 2021-06-08 - Developer Meeting, Agenda Available at https://wiki.evergreen-ils.org/do​ku.php?id=dev:meetings:2021-06-08
15:00 pinesol Meeting started Tue Jun  8 15:00:32 2021 US/Eastern.  The chair is JBoyer. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:00 pinesol Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote.
15:00 Topic for #evergreen is now  (Meeting topic: 2021-06-08 - Developer Meeting, Agenda Available at https://wiki.evergreen-ils.org/dok​u.php?id=dev:meetings:2021-06-08)
15:00 pinesol The meeting name has been set to '2021_06_08___developer_meeting__agenda_​available_at_https___wiki_evergreen_ils_​org_doku_php_id_dev_meetings_2021_06_08'
15:00 JBoyer #topic Introductions
15:00 Topic for #evergreen is now Introductions (Meeting topic: 2021-06-08 - Developer Meeting, Agenda Available at https://wiki.evergreen-ils.org/dok​u.php?id=dev:meetings:2021-06-08)
15:00 gmcharlt_ #info gmcharlt = Galen Charlton, Equinox
15:00 JBoyer Old joke, who dis?
15:00 phasefx #info phasefx = Jason Etheridge, Equinox
15:01 dluch #info dluch=Debbie Luchenbill, MOBIUS
15:01 JBoyer #info JBoyer = Jason Boyer, Equinox
15:01 rhamby #info rhamby = Rogan Hamby, Equinox
15:01 mmorgan #info mmorgan = Michele Morgan, NOBLE
15:01 miker #info miker = Mike Rylander, Equinox
15:01 collum #info collum = Garry Collum, KCPL
15:01 berick #info berick = Bill Erickson, KCLS
15:01 terranm #info terranm = Terran McCanna, PINES
15:01 abneiman #info abneiman = Andrea Buntz Neiman, Equinox
15:01 Dyrcona #info Dyrcona = Jason Stephenson, CW MARS
15:01 jeff #info jeff = Jeff Godin, Traverse Area District Library (TADL)
15:01 alynn26 #info alynn26 = Lynn Floyd, Evergreen Indiana
15:02 JBoyer Ok, anyone else joining later is welcome to info-up then.
15:02 JBoyer #topic Action Items from Last Meeting
15:02 Topic for #evergreen is now Action Items from Last Meeting (Meeting topic: 2021-06-08 - Developer Meeting, Agenda Available at https://wiki.evergreen-ils.org/dok​u.php?id=dev:meetings:2021-06-08)
15:02 JBoyer The careful observer may well be able to guess how this went.
15:03 JBoyer #action JBoyer will for-really-this-time work with csharp to update mailman settings and make an announcement to the lists ahead of time.
15:03 terranm :)
15:03 dluch lol
15:03 JBoyer That brings us to Eg release things
15:03 JBoyer #topic Evergreen Release Updates
15:03 Topic for #evergreen is now Evergreen Release Updates (Meeting topic: 2021-06-08 - Developer Meeting, Agenda Available at https://wiki.evergreen-ils.org/dok​u.php?id=dev:meetings:2021-06-08)
15:03 JBoyer sandbergja wanted me to remind everyone that we're hoping to put together 3.6 and 3.7 releases on June 16th. Please fill in spot(s) on the release sheet that you can help with if available.
15:03 JBoyer And if you want to help but don't know what spreadsheet I'm talking about, ping me directly; I'd rather not share an "anyone with the link can edit" link to a publicly logged channel. :)
15:04 abowling joined #evergreen
15:04 JBoyer I also believe we're in need of a release manager/team for 3.8.
15:04 JBoyer Anyone feeling the call?
15:05 gmcharlt_ I am willing to convene a release team, but I am not willing to do it solo
15:06 JBoyer I believe that's 3 in a row. :-/ Thank you for being willing to do that.
15:06 * mmorgan is happy to be on a team, but still don't feel a full grasp of the process
15:06 phasefx I'm willing to help, but in the same boat
15:07 Bmagic #info Bmagic = Blake GH, MOBIUS
15:07 jeff I'm interested in assisting but will need to verify some things to avoid overcommitting.
15:08 JBoyer I'm pulled in a lot of directions but I can also help out.
15:09 Dyrcona Same here.
15:09 terranm I'm happy to continue coordinating feedback fest / bug squashing week activities with the next release team
15:09 JBoyer I can also be bumped if anyone else wants to get some experience.
15:09 JBoyer terranm++ those are very helpful.
15:10 JBoyer Ok! We have several people who've expressed at least willingness.
15:11 gmcharlt_ and as a general plea: best way for commiters to help, whether or not they want to be formally on the Release Team (tm) is to review and merge pull requests
15:11 terranm +1
15:11 JBoyer In order to nail that down, is everyone ok with a team consisting of gmcharlt_ , mmorgan , phasefx , and myself? With possible assistance from jeff and or Dyrcona depending on other commitments?
15:12 dluch ReleaseTeam (tm)++
15:12 JBoyer And yes, everyone that can commit can help: test, commit, push, you've helped put the release together. :)
15:12 Dyrcona That release team works for me.
15:12 rhamby +1
15:13 csharp #info csharp = Chris Sharp, GPLS
15:13 * miker will do more PR merging, but not sure he should commit to joining the official team for this round
15:13 JBoyer jeff and Dyrcona, did you want to check into availability or just help push signed off branches when possible? (which is still great)
15:14 JBoyer (which would leave us with a team of 4)
15:15 jeff if you're happy with a team of four, I'm happy to help from the sidelines. I just didn't want to leave gmcharlt hanging there. :-)
15:15 Dyrcona I've often been around for releases to build a tarball or such when others have commitments.
15:15 Dyrcona Or do the bugmaster duties.
15:16 csharp happy to help with building duties too
15:16 JBoyer In the interest of having a set list today we'll go with the group of 4. gmcharlt_ , mmorgan , phasefx , everyone happy with this team while having plenty of outside help?
15:17 csharp can't commit to much with the Sharp fam off the rails right now
15:17 terranm +1 to that release team!
15:17 JBoyer csharp++
15:17 gmcharlt_ +1
15:17 Dyrcona +1
15:17 mmorgan +1
15:17 csharp +1
15:18 JBoyer #agreed The 3.8 Release team is gmcharlt_ , phasefx , mmorgan , and JBoyer
15:18 jeff +1
15:18 JBoyer Anything else Evergreen release related to discuss?
15:19 JBoyer #topic Documentation
15:19 Topic for #evergreen is now Documentation (Meeting topic: 2021-06-08 - Developer Meeting, Agenda Available at https://wiki.evergreen-ils.org/dok​u.php?id=dev:meetings:2021-06-08)
15:19 JBoyer #info June DIG was cancelled, July 8 will be a business meeting … somewhere.
15:19 dluch :-)
15:19 JBoyer dluch, I thought you could add a little more flavor to the other point than my just copypasta-ing it.
15:21 dluch Well, we had several new people come to the hackfest and learn how to/contribute new documentation. 3.7 docs are in-progress, the August Zoom meeting is going to be focused on how to submit already-created docs
15:21 terranm dluch++
15:21 JBoyer dluch++
15:22 JBoyer That does sound like a good hackfest.
15:22 dluch It was!
15:23 JBoyer If there are no questions or further discussion about docs I'll throw down the LP stats soon
15:23 terranm26 joined #evergreen
15:23 JBoyer #topic Launchpad Status
15:23 Topic for #evergreen is now Launchpad Status (Meeting topic: 2021-06-08 - Developer Meeting, Agenda Available at https://wiki.evergreen-ils.org/dok​u.php?id=dev:meetings:2021-06-08)
15:23 JBoyer #info Total Open Bugs - 2533
15:23 JBoyer #info Total Pullrequests - 116
15:23 JBoyer #info Total Signedoff - 47
15:23 JBoyer #info New Bugs Added - 50
15:23 JBoyer #info New Pullrequest tag Added - 24
15:23 JBoyer #info New Signedoff tag Added - 9
15:24 JBoyer #info New Fix Committed - 38
15:24 JBoyer Things are moving!
15:24 terranm Nice
15:24 mmorgan committers++
15:25 JBoyer I know it would get me in trouble with rate limits, but I do wish my client would split messages with newlines rather than CP-ing each line. :D
15:25 JBoyer Ok, the main event
15:25 JBoyer #topic New Business
15:25 Topic for #evergreen is now New Business (Meeting topic: 2021-06-08 - Developer Meeting, Agenda Available at https://wiki.evergreen-ils.org/dok​u.php?id=dev:meetings:2021-06-08)
15:25 JBoyer #topic Results of jeffdavis's IRC poll sent to the mailing lists
15:25 Topic for #evergreen is now Results of jeffdavis's IRC poll sent to the mailing lists (Meeting topic: 2021-06-08 - Developer Meeting, Agenda Available at https://wiki.evergreen-ils.org/dok​u.php?id=dev:meetings:2021-06-08)
15:25 JBoyer #info Should Evergreen leave Freenode for another IRC network: 25 yes, 0 no, 7 no preference
15:25 JBoyer #info Which non-Freenode IRC network do you prefer: 18 Libera, 6 OFTC, 7 no preference, 1 Discord
15:25 JBoyer We'll be Very Official and have a vote shortly but before that does anyone have any concerns, questions, etc. re: IRC and The Future?
15:25 JBoyer jeffdavis++ for putting that together
15:26 mmorgan jeffdavis++
15:26 Dyrcona jeffdavis++
15:26 gmcharlt_ jeffdavis++
15:26 dluch jeffdavis++
15:26 terranm jeffdavis++
15:26 miker jeffdavis++
15:27 JBoyer Ok, hearing no concerns,
15:27 JBoyer #startvote Should the official Evergreen Community IRC leave Freenode? yes, no, abstain
15:27 pinesol Begin voting on: Should the official Evergreen Community IRC leave Freenode? Valid vote options are yes, no, abstain.
15:27 pinesol Vote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts.
15:27 gmcharlt_ #vote yes
15:27 JBoyer #vote yes
15:27 Dyrcona #vote yes
15:27 jeff #vote yes
15:28 collum #vote yes
15:28 alynn26 #vote yes
15:28 berick #vote yes
15:28 phasefx #vote yes
15:28 csharp #vote yes
15:28 mmorgan #vote yes
15:28 rhamby #vote yes
15:28 abneiman #vote yes
15:28 dluch #vote yes
15:28 miker #vote yes
15:28 terranm98 joined #evergreen
15:29 JBoyer #endvote
15:29 pinesol Voted on "Should the official Evergreen Community IRC leave Freenode?" Results are
15:29 pinesol yes (14): gmcharlt_, JBoyer, abneiman, jeff, phasefx, berick, collum, miker, Dyrcona, mmorgan, csharp, dluch, rhamby, alynn26
15:29 JBoyer So then, we'll need a place to go
15:29 JBoyer #startvote Which network should host the official Evergreen Community IRC channel? libera, oftc, other
15:29 pinesol Begin voting on: Which network should host the official Evergreen Community IRC channel? Valid vote options are libera, oftc, other.
15:29 pinesol Vote using '#vote OPTION'. Only your last vote counts.
15:29 JBoyer #vote libera
15:29 csharp #vote libera
15:29 collum #vote libera
15:29 jeff #vote libera
15:29 miker #vote libera
15:30 abneiman #vote libera
15:30 gmcharlt_ #vote libera
15:30 rhamby #vote libera
15:30 phasefx #vote libera
15:30 JBoyer if there's enough other happening we can hash that out, but the voting mechanism isn't terribly flexible.
15:30 JBoyer Uh, not that it matters I guess. :)
15:30 dluch #vote libera
15:30 berick #vote libera
15:30 Dyrcona #vote libera
15:30 alynn26 #vote libera
15:31 Dyrcona Looks like we've acquiesced to the poll results.
15:31 JBoyer #endvote
15:31 pinesol Voted on "Which network should host the official Evergreen Community IRC channel?" Results are
15:31 pinesol libera (13): gmcharlt_, JBoyer, abneiman, jeff, berick, phasefx, collum, Dyrcona, csharp, dluch, alynn26, rhamby, miker
15:32 gmcharlt_ I love the smell of unanimity in the afternoon
15:32 dluch LOL
15:32 Dyrcona :)
15:32 JBoyer Ok then, so now folks can go register their nicks. libera has a nice page on how to do that if it's been too long.
15:32 gmcharlt_ so, I thnk we have various implementation steps to consider
15:33 gmcharlt_ 1. officially registering Evergreen as a project with Libera
15:33 gmcharlt_ 2. repointing the IRC bot
15:33 jeff (s)
15:33 csharp I think a board member should probably do the registering, no?
15:33 gmcharlt_ 3. somebody with op changing the FreeNode chanel topic to something that's a safe pointer
15:33 gmcharlt_ yeah, I can take care of the registration (and giving the TEP board an official heads-up)
15:33 JBoyer I may have misunderstood during the conference, I thought we were already registered or we wouldn't have the single-# namespace?
15:33 gmcharlt_ 4. updating the website
15:33 csharp gmcharlt_++
15:34 devted #info devted = Ted Peterson, MOBIUS
15:34 dluch gmcharlt_++
15:34 gmcharlt_ JBoyer: not sure that they police that on the spot, but if we have been already registered, so much the easier for me!
15:34 gmcharlt_ 5. sending a note to the mailing lists
15:34 JBoyer True, I'm sure it won't be difficult to find out.
15:34 gmcharlt_ 6. (maybe) conducting a community IRC training session
15:34 abneiman gmcharlt_: does repointing the bot include logging, or is that a separate thing?
15:35 devted gmcharlt_++
15:35 JBoyer abneiman, separate bot
15:35 jeff JBoyer: nothing prevents using a single-# channel, you just have no/less claim to it if/when a project with that name comes along.
15:35 dluch training session +1
15:35 gmcharlt_ abneiman: yeah, the logging bot would also need to be moved
15:35 JBoyer jeff, ah, ok.
15:35 mmorgan What handles indexing?
15:35 Dyrcona So, bshum or I should be able to point the bots.
15:35 JBoyer Though "owning" it does mean we can claim #evergreen-*, so the release channel could be official if we're interested in that.
15:36 csharp pinesol, serflog, egbuilder, pastebot
15:36 pinesol csharp: Sorry, that command is only available to Evergreen Premium™ Subscribers. Please upgrade your subscription ASAP!
15:36 gmcharlt_ yeah, we may as well move the release channel as well
15:36 jeff as can i, including ensuring that indexing is working again. we should also take a look at Google again... note-to-self.
15:36 JBoyer Oh, it's going, I just meant it could be #evergreen-release if we wanted. :)
15:36 jeff another thing to consider is renaming some of the #eg- channels to #evergreen-, or asking about multiple namespaces.
15:36 gmcharlt_ ah, right
15:36 Dyrcona jeff: FYI, I'm pretty sure bshum moved them to the new VM.
15:36 mmorgan jeff++ # Such good info in the chat logs!
15:36 * csharp mutters something about migrating to the eg-bots server we set up a long time ago
15:36 jeff probably the rename is better than the dual-prefix
15:37 gmcharlt_ csharp: such a great opportunity to do it now!
15:37 csharp gmcharlt_: agreed
15:37 gmcharlt_ jeff: yeah, I tend to agree about having a single prefix
15:37 JBoyer jeff, and possibly letting some of us know what the eg- channels are, I only know of 1.
15:38 jeff JBoyer: ah, one other i was mistaken about the prefix. not #eg-
15:38 JBoyer Anyway, I'm dragging things off course. As gmcharlt_ rightly points out there are multiple steps beyond everyone reading this just doing their thing. That means action items!
15:38 dbriem joined #evergreen
15:39 JBoyer Who would like to #act out?
15:39 jeff i can cut over logging bot and check on indexing, and handle channel maintenance on this end with regard to moderating / topic / etc.
15:39 gmcharlt_ #action gmcharlt will register #evergreen with Libera and inform the TEP board
15:39 jeff (those are likely different action items)
15:39 Dyrcona I could take registering and pointing the bots a libera.
15:40 abneiman I can do the website update once all the pieces are in place
15:40 JBoyer #action jeff will make sure #evergreen is logged as expected
15:40 abneiman (also there are probs some wiki pages that will need to be looked at along with the website; I can take that too)
15:40 JBoyer #action Dyrcona will look at registering / pointing the other bots at #evergreen
15:40 Dyrcona #action Dyrcona will register the bots and point them at Libera.
15:41 Dyrcona Dang! Now, I have to do it twice! :)
15:41 JBoyer #action abneiman will update the website with the new connection details
15:42 JBoyer jeff, did you want to go ahead and take the ops duties also? (I specifically left off the second half of your comment since it is indeed separate from bot maintenance.)
15:43 JBoyer Well, you did say that, my mistake there.
15:43 dluch abneiman I can help with the wiki, if you need/want it!
15:43 JBoyer #action jeff will handle freenode #evergreen orderly shutdown once the time comes
15:43 jeff yep, that works.
15:43 jeff you decided on wording before i did. :-)
15:44 abneiman dluch++ we will coordinate on that
15:44 JBoyer That leaves the mailing lists, which I can do.
15:44 JBoyer #action JBoyer will let all of the Evergreen / OpenSRF mailing lists know about the move
15:45 JBoyer The next bit is the order of operations.
15:46 JBoyer I'm thinking something like this, slightly reordered from gmcharlt_ 's points:
15:47 JBoyer 1. officially registering Evergreen as a project with Libera
15:47 JBoyer 2.1. updating the website
15:47 JBoyer 2.2. sending a note to the mailing lists
15:47 JBoyer 2.3. repointing the IRC bot
15:47 JBoyer 3. somebody with op changing the FreeNode chanel topic to something that's a safe pointer
15:47 JBoyer 4. (maybe) conducting a community IRC training session
15:47 gmcharlt_ the registeration of the channel is independent of anything else; if there were another Evergreen open source project that wanted #evergreen, we presumably would have known of them by now
15:47 JBoyer Ah, it does work, just warns me that I could be banned. How... something.
15:48 JBoyer gmcharlt_, true. Then I suppose there's very little that has to be done serially other than step 3.
15:49 Dyrcona I think the bots can be pointed at multiple channels/networks, so the timing on that may be less sensitive, also.
15:49 JBoyer Though the bot/web/email steps are ideally close to each other in time.
15:50 JBoyer Dyrcona, that would be great. Or if there is a new place for them to live that they have just never been moved to there could be 2 separate sets, depending on how the bot wranglers want to deal with that.
15:50 JBoyer (temporarily)
15:50 JBoyer Alright, it sounds like we have a plan in place.
15:50 Dyrcona I recall bshum saying that he moved the bots to their new home after the confernece.
15:51 JBoyer Ah, so much for that option. :)
15:51 JBoyer jeff++ Dyrcona++ abneiman++ gmcharlt_++ dluch++
15:51 JBoyer One last thing before we adjourn
15:51 JBoyer #topic Interest in an officially bridged side-channel?
15:51 Topic for #evergreen is now Interest in an officially bridged side-channel? (Meeting topic: 2021-06-08 - Developer Meeting, Agenda Available at https://wiki.evergreen-ils.org/dok​u.php?id=dev:meetings:2021-06-08)
15:52 JBoyer This is obviously not the place to make a final decision on this topic, but I would like to hear some thoughts on there being a "semi-official" Evergreen discord or slack channel, etc. that would be bridged to the IRC channel such that messages go both ways.
15:52 JBoyer As an example see #code4lib on libera. (Though they have more of these than I would be interested in.) This would allow people to use the client / service they're most comfortable with while not dividing community discussion.
15:52 gmcharlt_ to suggest a D-Day: 6/14?
15:52 JBoyer My assumption would be that ultimately choosing one of these would be settled over the mailing lists because the folks comfortable with IRC are already here. :)
15:52 JBoyer gmcharlt_, That seems reasonable given the split in duties.
15:53 Dyrcona I'm not opposed to a bridged side channel.
15:53 JBoyer Now that I've clouded up the discussion with more copy pastawater can everyone do their thing this week?
15:53 gmcharlt_ I would be -1 to a Slack bridge; Slack, as a tool that ultimately assumes that an HR department exists as the Moderator of Record, does not provide much in the way of community or self-moderation tools
15:53 Dyrcona I was thinking of 6/15 for the date, but...
15:54 jeff in my experience when seeing groups bridge IRC and Slack, it tends to kill the IRC channel. Also, seconding Slack's unsuitability for communities.
15:54 JBoyer Slack also wants to be a whole "network" and we don't want channels splitting off and getting lost.
15:54 gmcharlt_ I've no objection to 6/15
15:55 JBoyer Are there any Discord users here? I don't know if it's like Slack or more single-channel.
15:55 JBoyer (It also seems to be the only one that keeps coming up)
15:55 dluch So, Discord? From a personal and DIG perspective, I definitely would support a side channel
15:55 Dyrcona I've no objection to 6/14, either. I was just thinking 1 week from today.
15:56 gmcharlt_ @coinflip Monday or Tuesday
15:56 pinesol gmcharlt_: https://i.imgur.com/m8EySrW.gifv
15:56 dluch I use Discord for personal stuff, but it's been recent, so I don't know that much about it, lol
15:56 gmcharlt_ unhelpful cat is unhelpful
15:56 csharp it's where the youngs live
15:56 dluch Yep
15:56 jeff JBoyer: yes, Discord has the same issue of multiple channels silo'ing off
15:56 * csharp is one of the olds :-)
15:56 JBoyer Mmm. :-/
15:57 JBoyer So does Matrix, really. (my preference for not-slack slack)
15:57 Dyrcona I thought Discord was for gamers.... :)
15:57 rhamby I've used discord and it's a perfectly feasible chat forum with extra stuff
15:57 csharp as in, my kids are always on Discord
15:57 * csharp shakes fist at kids on his lawn
15:57 rhamby the culture of discord reminds me of theh old fido net BBS days with so many specialized boards
15:57 jeff Dyrcona: that is their original and arguably still-primary focus, though they are trying to get away from it after their acquisition by Microsoft fell through.
15:57 JBoyer Anyway, that's for the email list, I really only wanted to make sure there wouldn't be wailing and gnashing of teeth at the idea today.
15:58 gmcharlt_ yeah, I think there's a broader question of considering a chat platform with less of a barrier to entry than IRC... but possibly ultimately as a replacement for IRC, not a side-channel for all of the community-splitting reasons
15:59 JBoyer I'll put together a poll for that too.
15:59 Dyrcona I don't understand this barrier to entry for IRC that everyone talks about? You can type? You can use IRC. It's no really any different from any other chat thingy.
15:59 JBoyer #action JBoyer will ask the email lists about possible side channels and interest therein
15:59 csharp Dyrcona: I just had the exact same thought, but obviously there's *something* that makes people uncomfortable :-)
16:00 gmcharlt_ but if you want a bouncer... you're on your own
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16:00 gmcharlt_ which I think is one of the main usability problems
16:00 gmcharlt_ also, network effects are real, so to speak
16:00 jeff I'd like to avoid bridging in general if we can, with the possible exception of Matrix users using the Libera matrix bridge.
16:01 devted Mattermost (another open source Slack competitor that can be customized)? or Clickup?  (the Chat View with paid plan)
16:01 JBoyer Yeah, I use ZNC to keep me current on all of my channels just like I want IMAP-like email, everywhere. I can see the appeal of an app just having all of that.
16:02 JBoyer jeff, would that require an evergreen matrix room
16:02 JBoyer ?
16:02 rhamby if we're looking at ease of use and access then I think anything that we have to explain how it's an open source competitor and if you just go find a certain client you can configure it ..... probably isn't what we want
16:02 JBoyer (I haven't been following that stuff that closely)
16:03 Dyrcona If it isn't OpenSource. I'm not there.
16:03 rhamby if we want ease of use it needs to be "go to your phone's app store click install and put in this server name and you're done"
16:03 Dyrcona cf. What I said before the meeting about using Google, et. al.
16:03 jeff JBoyer: it's one of the only bridging options I've seen that doesn't present everyone on the far side of the bridge as a single nickname/client on irc.
16:03 JBoyer Matrix does have that benefit, along with the OSS.
16:03 jeff JBoyer: other than that, I don't know enough about Matrix yet to speak to your question.
16:03 JBoyer jeff++
16:04 jeff rhamby: that seems like a gross oversimplification.
16:04 rhamby jeff: in what way?
16:04 jeff rhamby: unless you're advocating that we publish our own chat app which uses Google/Apple auth, at which point I have objections. :-)
16:04 JBoyer Ok, lots of communicating to do. We don't have to decide if / what *else* to do today, because like I said, the primary audience for that discussion isn't in here anyway. ;p
16:05 gmcharlt_ indeed
16:05 gmcharlt_ also, we might want to have some discussion about desiderata before putting out a poll
16:05 rhamby no, I'm saying the barrier to entry needs to be low and existing apps with large user bases are probably going to be more useful than most other options
16:05 jeff the other angle to this is that instead of replacing the IRC channels we might replace the mailing lists.
16:06 gmcharlt_ jeff: i.e., the Discourse approach?
16:06 JBoyer Yes, and it's not something that needs to be done in the same timeframe either. We're definitely moving to Libera this week, other things will happen later out of necessity.
16:06 jeff but I'm not sure how we measure benefit from an option like a web forum if our audience is "people for whom the mailing lists work" and "people for whom IRC works" :-)
16:07 jeff nor how we prove the existence of portions of the community who would benefit from and contribute to meaningful communications via a not-yet-in-existence community channel. :-)
16:08 jeff it's a non-unique non-trivial issue, and I have no clear suggestions or answers.
16:08 Bmagic Discord is great IMO. IRC is also great. And coming from an IT support perspective, seeing users use computers, I can say that IRC has a "techy" feel to it, which pushes many away. Humans want "easy to see" "easy to look at" interfaces with zero barriers (like memorizing commands, etc)
16:09 rhamby we've heard from a large segment of the evergreen community for years that irc isn't comfortable for them, hence why many meetings have moved off it
16:09 Bmagic Discord / Slack has the "all in one" brand. IRC is "use whatever client" - confusing the matter
16:10 gmcharlt_ so, other meeting topics to discuss?
16:10 JBoyer For now we'll focus on moving this channel, then we'll discuss possible other things. I really just wanted people to start thinking about things today. (And the discussion can continue right after this!
16:10 miker the web client libera has looks very discord/slack-y, fwiw
16:10 JBoyer #topic Announcements
16:10 Topic for #evergreen is now Announcements (Meeting topic: 2021-06-08 - Developer Meeting, Agenda Available at https://wiki.evergreen-ils.org/dok​u.php?id=dev:meetings:2021-06-08)
16:10 Dyrcona Discord/Slack has vendor/network lockin. It's as bad as Facebook.
16:10 JBoyer #info Next meeting is July 13th, 2021
16:11 JBoyer Barring any urgent dev stuff, I now return your to your discussion already in progress. :D
16:11 JBoyer #endmeeting
16:11 Topic for #evergreen is now Welcome to the #evergreen library system channel! | We are publicly logged: http://irc.evergreen-ils.org/evergreen | Large pastes at http://paste.evergreen-ils.org | Can't speak? Make sure your nickname is registered and that you are identified to freenode services: https://freenode.net/kb/answer/registration
16:11 pinesol Meeting ended Tue Jun  8 16:11:04 2021 US/Eastern.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
16:11 pinesol Minutes:        http://evergreen-ils.org/meetings/evergr​een/2021/evergreen.2021-06-08-15.00.html
16:11 pinesol Minutes (text): http://evergreen-ils.org/meetings/evergr​een/2021/evergreen.2021-06-08-15.00.txt
16:11 pinesol Log:            http://evergreen-ils.org/meetings/evergree​n/2021/evergreen.2021-06-08-15.00.log.html
16:11 csharp JBoyer++
16:11 miker JBoyer++
16:11 Bmagic JBoyer++
16:11 Dyrcona JBoyer++
16:11 mmorgan JBoyer++
16:11 gmcharlt_ JBoyer++
16:11 terranm JBoyer++
16:11 rhamby Dyrcona - I agree with that principal but for ease of access by the larger community I think it's an evil to accept
16:11 collum JBoyer++
16:11 rhamby JBoyer++
16:11 Bmagic Dyrcona: I totally agree
16:11 Dyrcona rhamby: I'm not willing to accept that evil. You will lose me if that's the choice the community makes.
16:12 Bmagic On the other hand - it's what people generally want, for better or worse
16:12 dluch JBoyer++
16:12 JBoyer And yes, I'm not really a fan of Discord or Slack for the reasons mentioned by Dyrcona. I like Matrix more there (works for Mozilla), but I don't know how easy it is to get started. (I use my own local server so I'm not a great one to ask about that.)
16:12 Dyrcona I mean, think about why we're even having this discussion.....
16:12 JBoyer Though Element (matrix client) is available in all the usual mobile places.
16:13 Bmagic I've not looked at the web interface for libera, maybe that would be a good compromise
16:13 JBoyer Bmagic, It's the same web irc thing freenode has.
16:17 jeff It's Kiwi IRC. They also have a "client builder" which is designed to create an embedded client on a web page of your choosing.
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18:00 pinesol News from qatests: Testing Success <http://testing.evergreen-ils.org/~live>
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