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IRC log for #evergreen, 2016-08-16

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All times shown according to the server's local time.

Time Nick Message
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08:30 kmlussier Good morning #evergreen!
08:30 kmlussier @coffee [someone]
08:30 * pinesol_green brews and pours a cup of Mocha Java Espresso, and sends it sliding down the bar to bshum
08:30 kmlussier @tea [someone]
08:30 * pinesol_green brews and pours a pot of Bi Luo Chun Green Tea (Pi Lo Chun), and sends it sliding down the bar to pastebot (http://ratetea.com/tea/teavivre/bi-l​uo-chun-green-tea-pi-lo-chun/6490/)
08:39 mmorgan joined #evergreen
08:40 tsbere I am not sure how good it is, I have to attend meetings this afternoon and be prepped for them this morning. <_<
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09:05 jeff morning!
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09:14 krvmga jeff: morning!
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09:38 mmorgan Good morning, all! I'm working on lp 1583729
09:38 pinesol_green Launchpad bug 1583729 in Evergreen "Item status screen column options do not include age protection" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1583729 - Assigned to Michele Morgan (mmorgan)
09:38 mmorgan I have the xul pages covered, but I'm stuck on the Holdings view in webby.
09:39 mmorgan Here are a couple of screenshots: https://docs.google.com/a/noblenet.or​g/document/d/1VEdLdI5wKiOIJ5-fx6pI88e​GrwwRlUICLtGccBREe08/edit?usp=sharing
09:40 kmlussier mmorgan: We need permission to see that.
09:40 mmorgan Sorry! always forget to click "OK" :-(
09:40 kmlussier :)
09:42 mmorgan In t_holdings.tt2, I tried <eg-grid-field label="[% l('Age-based Hold Protection') %]" path="age_protect"></eg-grid-field> which resulted in the first screenshot
09:42 mmorgan <eg-grid-field label="[% l('Age-based Hold Protection') %]" path="age_protect.name"></eg-grid-field> gave me the second.
09:43 Dyrcona Dunno if I'm supposed to be able to see it, but I can't see the document.
09:44 mmorgan In the second screenshot, the item with age protection displays correctly, but how can the field blanked for the other items?
09:44 mmorgan kmlussier: Can you see the document now?
09:45 kmlussier mmorgan: No. It's still telling me that I need permission.
09:46 mmorgan Ah. OK. How about now?
09:46 kmlussier Yes, works for me now.
09:46 mmorgan :)
09:46 Dyrcona mmorgan: What does circulation modifier do?
09:47 * Dyrcona opens the template to look.
09:47 mmorgan Circ modifier is <eg-grid-field label="[% l('Circulation Modifier') %]"   path="circ_modifier"></eg-grid-field>
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09:51 jeff i've seen the bit in the second screen shot on webby before, but don't see it currently. perhaps it was a bug that has been fixed and you lack the fix locally?
09:51 jeff (or just the similar symptom without a shared root cause)
09:51 * jeff looks at changes
09:52 kmlussier Yeah, I thought I had seen it before too, but I couldn't find the fixes when I tried looking for them.
09:53 jeff i think it may be commit 89787b8
09:53 * mmorgan also remembers seeing something similar before, and also failed to find fixes.
09:53 jeff in working: http://git.evergreen-ils.org/?p=wor​king/Evergreen.git;a=commit;h=89787​b83e7d1f74dca2bcd59fb1234633e4131f4
09:54 kmlussier jeff++
09:54 jeff miker++, not me. ;-)
09:54 kmlussier The karma was for the finding. :)
09:55 * mmorgan looks
09:55 kmlussier I was looking much further back in history apparently.
09:56 mmorgan jeff++ #finding
09:56 mmorgan miker++ #fixing
09:57 miker eh? wha? ... ah! yes, that was annoying me :)
09:57 mmorgan That fix doesn't seem to be in my file. Should do the trick :)
09:59 kmlussier miker++ #fixing mmorgan++ #hacking the web client
10:00 mmorgan YAY!!! That did the trick :)
10:00 mmorgan Should have a branch up soon.
10:01 Dyrcona Yay!
10:01 miker Dyrcona: question about 022ebd22895c987eb2227d8463b36e9a55d1d783 ... what happens to a copy who's transit.status is, say, damaged, and the copy is mistakenly checked in at the wrong location (or, a WS registered at the wrong location?
10:01 miker AH! MEETING! biab
10:03 Dyrcona miker: It does what the code says. If it's checked in at home and the copy status is transit, it changes to reshelving. The code cannot check for a mistaken checkin at the "wrong" location, 'cause the code just does what it's told.
10:06 Dyrcona Rather, if the transit is aborted at home....
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10:44 miker Dyrcona: my point is that the code today will apply the transit.copy_status (which is not necessarily "reshelving") when the transit is aborted. with your code, it will abort the transit and /forget/ the transit.status, which, again, may not be reshelving, when the transit is aborted "remotely", even when the staff user has permission. so, you can lose a "damaged" status, or a "bindery" status, etc.
10:47 kmlussier csharp++ #Bug wrangling
10:48 * dbs considers fixing a 4-year-old bug he opened and identified a potential fix for
10:49 csharp kmlussier: yeah, there are some Evergreen Classic™ bugs in there ;-)
10:49 dbs csharp++
11:03 Dyrcona miker: "the code today will apply the transit.copy_status ... when the transit is aborted" does not jibe with my recollection of the experience.
11:03 Dyrcona Nor does it jibe with the bug description.
11:04 berick it forces the copy back into Reshelving if it's a hold transit.  otherwise, it adopts the status carried in the transit.
11:04 berick so it's a bit of both
11:06 berick http://git.evergreen-ils.org/?p=Evergreen.g​it;a=blob;f=Open-ILS/src/perlmods/lib/OpenI​LS/Application/Circ/Transit.pm;h=22074384d3​3db7f3c235dd2a9ca0751bd913eb97;hb=HEAD#l242
11:06 Dyrcona berick: Right. I was looking at it again.
11:06 Dyrcona We seem to get a lot of hold transits that never clear for one reason or another.
11:07 Dyrcona The problem as I understand it is that the code today changes the copy status when it shouldn't, so I sought to reduce the times that the status changes.
11:07 jeff staff select "don't print" and think that means "don't capture", and then they re-shelve the book instead of sending it to the correct library?
11:08 Dyrcona If you read the comments, you can tease out how the code evolved.
11:08 Dyrcona jeff: No idea what happens, really. I don't work in a library and by the time it gets to me, no one knows or remembers.
11:08 Dyrcona Often times, the transit that was aborted was months old at the time.
11:09 jeff lots of reasons for transits to not complete. we do a monthly report of "in transit too long" which is mailed to each library. then there's a followup report where anything that was on the first report and hasn't been cleared yet is aborted and the items marked missing.
11:09 * Dyrcona resists the urge to use the "r" word.
11:09 jeff (with some human intervention/analysis in some of those followup cases, i think -- which is why it isn't just automatically done.)
11:10 Dyrcona jeff: Most of the cases that I hear about with abort transit, the librarian has the copy in hand and doesn't want it to fulfill the transit for some reason.
11:10 jeff we also had a report for a while of things in transit to self too long -- some items were being captured for local holds at SIP checkin but were incorrectly being reshelved instead of placed on the shelf. a case of staff overriding the sorter. fixed, don't generally need that report anymore.
11:11 jeff "instead of placed on the hold shelf"
11:11 Dyrcona MVLC does an in transit too long report, mainly so they can harangue the delivery company.
11:11 * jeff nods
11:12 tsbere MVLC does a number of reports to harangue various people. <_<
11:12 tsbere "Holds that are shelf-expired on someone *else's* shelf so we can call and yell at them to check them in already"
11:12 tsbere <_<
11:13 Dyrcona I think the code in abort transits is too trusting that everything has been done correctly. It blindly changes the copy status to whatever without checking the current status.
11:14 Dyrcona I've seen checked out copies go to reshelving because of an aborted hold transit while the circulation is still open afterward.
11:14 Dyrcona That is the situation I was trying to prevent.
11:14 * mmorgan has also seen what Dyrcona describes.
11:15 jeff because the item was checked out while still in transit, and the transit was not resolved at time of checkout?
11:15 Dyrcona jeff: I don't know. I don't care. It doesn't matter.
11:16 mmorgan jeff: I think these could be situations where the transit exists, but the item status isn't In Transit.
11:16 Dyrcona How that transit got stuck is irrelevant to this discussion. Sure, you could fix that, but then you still don't know what other possible work flow could lead to this.
11:17 Dyrcona I don't think abort transit should change a copy status unless the status is "In Transit," full stop.
11:18 Dyrcona I added the check for it being at home because mmorgan and kmlussier asked me to do so.
11:18 Dyrcona I disagree with that change, but I made it.
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11:19 Dyrcona I think, if I were to redo it today, I'd remove that check and I'd remove the bit that checks for a hold transit and makes it reshelving.
11:19 Dyrcona But then, I guess it could go on hold when it isn't.
11:19 * miker reads up
11:19 Dyrcona I like csharp's idea for a canceled transit copy status more and more. :)
11:20 csharp well, I think my new status branch ignores the concern miker brings up too - if the item is transited in Damaged or Bindery, that gets clobbered
11:20 kmlussier jeff: In answer to your question, I was able to replicate the checked out item with a hanging transit through a series of what I thought were implausible steps. It's a hard thing to make happen.
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11:21 miker Dyrcona: if the pain is all coming from hold transits that get aborted, then I think modifying that internal branch would be best, no?
11:21 miker then return transits don't forget what they're supposed to do
11:21 jeff kmlussier: thanks. we hadn't seen much of that there that i'm aware of, so i was curious (above).
11:21 Dyrcona In my experience, "hard" or "implausible" happens all the time.
11:21 kmlussier jeff: I put those steps on the LP bug if you're curious.
11:22 jeff kmlussier: always.
11:22 jeff kmlussier++
11:22 Dyrcona miker: I don't think abort transit should change the copy status unless the copy status is in transit. After that, the resit is negotiable. :)
11:22 miker Dyrcona: and what about the information the code would flush down the drain?
11:23 kmlussier And as a follow-up to that, I don't think a copy should get a reshelving status if whatever action changed the status happened outside its circulation library.
11:23 Dyrcona miker: If combined with csharp's code to cancel a transit rather than delete, the information would still be there.
11:23 Dyrcona In my experience though, that information is typically irrelevant by the time abort transit and copy status becomes an issue.
11:25 miker or, we could just force aborted hold transit statuses to "in transit" instead of "reshelving" when not at the destination library ... which seems to be the point, is it not?
11:25 Dyrcona But then, if the copy is actually checked out, you just hosed someone's circulation, which to mind is worse.
11:25 miker I mean, the complaint AIUI is that there are copies in "reshelving" where they shouldn't be when someone aborts a hold transit. am I not getting the problem, though?
11:26 Dyrcona I don't think you're getting the whole problem, no.
11:26 Dyrcona The abort transit code assumes that the copy is still in transit, when it may not be for a variety of reasons.
11:27 Dyrcona I have seen actual cases of a hold transit from 6 months ago being aborted when the copy was checked out to a patron.
11:27 Dyrcona The copy went to reshelving when it should have stayed checked out.
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11:27 Dyrcona The circulation itself was untouched.
11:28 * mmorgan has seen one case where aborting a transit set TWO items to reshelving.
11:28 miker then I think the description of the bug is lacking
11:28 Dyrcona Well, yes, the description may be lacking. It was mmorgan's bug, and I glommed onto it in the comments. ;)
11:29 Dyrcona I do think that the real problem is abort transit changing copy status when the copy status is not In Transit.
11:29 miker and saying that how the "hanging" transits got that way doesn't matter is not how one generally fixes bugs, IMNSHO
11:29 Dyrcona :)
11:29 Dyrcona Well, you can find one way that happens and fix it, but without fixing abort transit, you could still end up with other ways that this happens.
11:30 Dyrcona I'm talking about adding a safe guard to abort transit to protect the copy status from being changed unnecessarily.
11:30 mmorgan The original description was intended to address the simple issue of not being able to track items when transits were aborted, and having them show up on a pull list when it's likely they aren't even in the library
11:30 miker yes, bugs will exist. but the proposed change throws out the baby with the bathwater for return transits
11:30 Dyrcona In a system as complicated as Evergreen, you can never really be sure how things got to a certain state.
11:30 Dyrcona miker: I disagree.
11:30 miker and return transits are not implicated in the bug (description or comments) at all
11:31 Dyrcona Well, return transit will get the return status if aborted at home.
11:31 miker Dyrcona: I disagree that you can't be sure. you can, it just may take more time than is reasonable to invest
11:32 miker and they will THROW AWAY data otherwise
11:32 Dyrcona Only hold transits are forced to reshelving and that is the current behavior, not mine.
11:33 miker Dyrcona: a hold transit, but its nature, will not have a "special" status. it must be available-equivelant
11:33 miker if you want to cause /those/ aborted transits, at non-home (and non-dest) locations to be marked specially, great. I support that
11:33 Dyrcona Which part of the and do you object to?
11:33 miker because I see exactly what you mean there
11:34 miker but return transits can have /any/ status
11:34 miker so don't throw that status information away
11:34 miker I'll happily produce an alternative branch to illustrate, if you'd like
11:34 berick Dyrcona: are you basically proposing: if (copy->status != <in-transit>) { /* OMG leave the copy alone */ }
11:35 Dyrcona berick: Yes, pretty much.
11:36 berick that seems like a reasonable safe guard to me. the copy /should/ be in-transit, so it's not affecting the correct case.
11:36 csharp our experience is that the transit's target copy may be actually checked out or on the hold shelf or somewhere else, so I agree with letting the current copy status "win"
11:38 Dyrcona miker: I am more than happy to look at any other proposals. Maybe I'm missing something.
11:47 miker Dyrcona: so, here's my theory on how "hanging transits" occur: 1) staff fail to check in incoming hold transit items and just toss them on the hold shelf 2) staff force override of the checkout from a "bad" status, (if they are notified at all) 3) item is returned and the transit is unwrapped, breaking the circ
11:55 Dyrcona Could be.
11:55 * Dyrcona tries to read a diff backwards and decides to check the branch out instead.
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12:06 jeff I remember a while back some discussion about potential issues and/or improvements with proxying or load balancing websockets. It may have simply been "use a proxy to allow websockets and https to both take place on 443/tcp to avoid strict firewall issues."
12:06 jeff Does anyone have a memory of what I'm trying to describe above?
12:09 berick jeff: yes, IIRC, gmcharlt was looking at using nginx to do just that.
12:09 berick sharing 443
12:12 jeff okay, good. thought i was remembering correctly, but i wasn't sure if there were some other issues lurking.
12:12 jeff need for more/different persistence with LVS, etc.
12:13 jeff hah
12:14 jeff (misdirected hah -- dark laughter directed at an unrelated set of monitoring system alerts)
12:20 * dbs finds unexpected need for decode_utf8() to be added to shelving location names (and probably other strings retrieved from the database) in marc_export :/
12:22 dbs the fun things you find when you have shelves named "Référence" and "Collection générale" :)
12:24 miker Dyrcona: there's a commit at the top of http://git.evergreen-ils.org/?p=working/Ev​ergreen.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/user/m​iker/lp1306666-abort-transit-item-status that modifies your proposal
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13:20 Dyrcona miker++
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14:32 * jeff pulls gently on the thread labeled "stop running apache as the opensrf user"
14:34 Dyrcona jeff: Be careful you don't unravel the whole thing....That's a pretty delicate sweater.
14:35 Dyrcona Should work, though, if you're meticulous.
14:35 Dyrcona :)
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14:45 JBoyer jeff: fix your logging if it's not using syslog, and make a few things gid = www-data with g+r and you're all set. We haven't run apache as opensrf in years.
14:46 JBoyer The project I'd like to spend some spare time on is PREFIX=/ and SYSCONFDIR=/etc/opensrf/ or similar. Did not work the last time I tried, but that may have been because I made some mistakes in that VM.
14:46 Dyrcona JBoyer jeff: Is there any net benefit like for security or whatever?
14:48 jeff JBoyer: amusing, as i was just sitting here wondering why your playbook set permissions on /var/run/apache2 and /var/log/apache2 in addition to the (currently recommended in docs) /var/lock/apache2 :-)
14:48 JBoyer One less thing to change from the default, and you can use your apache install for other things if you like. (for smaller installs, anyway.) Also it may be slightly more secure since by default it can't write anywhere.
14:48 JBoyer jeff, because they're old and that never caused any problems, so it was forgotten. :D
14:50 Dyrcona JBoyer: Thanks. I guess you handle offline circ with permissions on the one directory.
14:50 Dyrcona ;)
14:51 JBoyer And vandelay, yes.
14:51 JBoyer (possibly others, memory is fuzzy.)
14:52 Dyrcona Use fuzzy logic, then. :)
14:52 JBoyer Yay! All of our problems are solved, for some definitions of "problems" and "solved!"
14:53 jeff semi-related is the desire to not ignore some of the things which are lost when using syslog with apache.
14:53 Dyrcona heh
14:53 Dyrcona JBoyer: And some definitions of "all?"
14:53 JBoyer Didn't want to be /entirely/ silly.
14:54 Dyrcona :)
14:54 Dyrcona jeff: Running as www-data helps with the log messages that don't make it to syslog, or was your comment in reference to something else?
14:54 JBoyer jeff, remind me what you mean, things like log parsing utils and so on?
14:56 jeff JBoyer: no, I mean log entries that are not logged by apache when using syslog, at least in the way that we are using syslog.
14:56 jeff JBoyer: i'd have to go back and find specific examples. none offhand.
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14:57 jeff i think it was related to errors/warnings and you needing to give up some things with a syslog destination vs piped logging vs traditional file based logging.
14:57 JBoyer I see.
14:58 Dyrcona jeff: I recall something like that, but I thought I had found them in /var/log/apache on the server and not in syslog.
14:58 Dyrcona It has also been a while since I last looked.
15:00 Dyrcona Fuzzy logic for fuzzy sweaters.... Sorry.....
15:00 berick my last recollection here was that piped logging to syslog from apache would allow all things to be captured, but using "ErrorLog syslog:local7" (or whatever) would drop stuff
15:01 jeff looking at this again, it might simply be this -- but i think there may have been more to it: "When logging to a regular file, messages of the level notice cannot be suppressed and thus are always logged. However, this doesn't apply when logging is done using syslog."
15:02 jeff berick: yes, i can't recall if the only downside i found to piping ErrorLog was "not the recommended default" or if there was another limitation.
15:02 jeff another thread to pull at.
15:02 jeff on this particular issue, i don't seem to have left myself anything in the way of useful (and searchable) notes.
15:02 JBoyer This shirt is going to be Cthulu cosplay soon.
15:02 Dyrcona heh.
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15:03 Dyrcona "Hey, there, Cthulhu. What's it like in Deep R'lyeh?"
15:03 Dyrcona Yeah, what berick and jeff are saying rings a bell or two.
15:04 Dyrcona IIRC, MVLC is piping to syslog from Apache because of that.
15:05 Stompro Question about 2.10.5 placing holds on parts.  The Parts dropdown now says "- All Parts -" by default.  I had a staff member that was testing it out say "Awsome, I can request all parts at once, so I don't have to place multiple holds to get one of each part".  But All Parts actually means Any Part, right?
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15:05 berick Stompro: right, any part
15:05 berick it's still just 1 hold
15:06 Stompro berick, Thanks for the confirmation.
15:07 bshum parts--
15:07 bshum Just because
15:08 bshum Boy that felt good :)
15:15 kmlussier Stompro / berick: "All parts" means any copy that does not have a part assigned to it, which is a little different than any part.
15:16 kmlussier Any part would mean the hold could target copy, no matter what part is assigned.
15:17 kmlussier In our case, the "all parts" label makes sense because the copies that don't have an assigned part are ones that have not been broken up into parts. IOW, the entire set. But I understand people handle this differently in other places.
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15:24 Stompro kmlussier, hmmm, thanks for the clarification.  That might cause problems for us.  I don't think we have records with some parts and some without parts, except for mistakes.
15:25 kmlussier Stompro: If a record only has parted items, the 'all parts' option doesn't display. But, you're right, it could cause problems if you have some mistakes.
15:25 berick kmlussier++
15:25 berick apologies for the misleading answer
15:25 kmlussier It basically is a title-level hold when the All Parts option is selected.
15:28 Stompro kmlussier++ thanks again... yep, there is one mistake witout a part on the record I was looking at.  We look for those to fix them so this won't be a problem.
15:35 miker JBoyer: non-default PREFIX and SYSCONFDIR work great for us, fwiw. what I'd really like is configure-time way to tell the perl install stuff to stick the modules in a location of my choosing
15:36 jeff and for that i like local::lib, though i've not tried to use it for an entire evergreen install.
15:37 JBoyer miker, Good to hear, I knew others had it working but I was only toying with it on a VM of likely questionable lineage. I also think being able to put the pm's where they "belong" is a good goal.
15:40 Dyrcona For the things installed from source, keeping it all together under $PREFIX would be suitable for me.
15:40 Dyrcona But others would have other ideas.....
15:41 * Dyrcona doesn't think it should be too hard to do with configure.
15:41 Dyrcona PERL5LIB would need to be set at runtime though.
15:42 Dyrcona Unless you messed with the system default paths.
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16:50 Dyrcona csharp++ # Going through old bugs.
16:50 * Dyrcona wonders how many of those are still valid.
17:04 kmlussier Dyrcona: It looks like csharp checked a few of those to see if they were still valid. He even moved a few over to Incomplete.
17:04 kmlussier progress
17:06 csharp okay - I've cleared series-targeted bugs through 2.7 - gonna leave 2.8 and newer alone for now, FYI
17:09 kmlussier csharp++
17:09 mmorgan csharp++
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17:17 Dyrcona Yeah. I didn't read all of the emails with the same scrutiny.
17:19 jeff berick: okay, from what i can tell based on some experimentation and trying to refresh my memory: the specific thing that is lost with Apache ErrorLog going to syslog is stderr. Directing ErrorLog to a pipe fixes this but does introduce some other changes (which i can probably figure out).
17:21 berick jeff: ok, that's about what I was expecting.  couldn't remember whether it caused other changes or not, though.
17:22 jeff with "LogLevel info", changing from ErrorLog syslog:local7 to ErrorLog "|/usr/bin/logger -p local7.info" results in a loss of at least one message -- [mpm_prefork:notice] [pid 2121] AH00169: caught SIGTERM, shutting down
17:22 jeff and that might be explained by the syslog config.
17:23 jeff (it also does expected things like change the process name from apache2 to logger, etc.)
17:24 csharp kmlussier: on bug 1611815, looks like you changed the wrong "Activate" in holds.tt2 - you changed the option in the dropdown menu when I think you meant to change the column heading
17:24 pinesol_green Launchpad bug 1611815 in Evergreen "use "Active On" rather than "Activate" as header in TPAC holds tables" [Low,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1611815
17:24 kmlussier Bah!
17:25 kmlussier csharp: OK, I'll remove the pullrequest on that and fix it up once I'm done doing what I'm doing.
17:25 csharp hold_history.tt2 looks correct though
17:25 kmlussier Oh, I didn't have a pullrequest tag.
17:25 kmlussier heh
17:26 csharp I was just reviewing 2.10 bugs
17:26 kmlussier csharp: Thanks for looking!
17:28 * kmlussier also needs to finish up bug 1612274
17:28 pinesol_green Launchpad bug 1612274 in Evergreen "Improvements to My Account Holds Screens" [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1612274 - Assigned to Kathy Lussier (klussier)
17:31 Dyrcona All right. Dinner is ready. I'm signing out.
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18:19 jwoodard does anyone have mkSolutions self check machines?
18:23 csharp jwoodard: I haven't heard of any of our libraries using those, fwiw
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18:29 jwoodard I am trying to find evergreen libraries that have them but no luck so far.
18:29 jwoodard most people I talk to use either 3M or techlogic
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