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IRC log for #evergreen, 2016-07-25

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All times shown according to the server's local time.

Time Nick Message
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09:27 Bmagic @coffee yo
09:27 * pinesol_green brews and pours a cup of Colombia Granja La Esperanza Geisha, and sends it sliding down the bar to yo
09:33 Dyrcona Bmagic: We beat Hanabi last week, though you might say we cheated since we played until the players had no cards left to play.
09:34 Dyrcona We also had two other games with 21 and 22 points.
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10:17 Bmagic Dyrcona++
10:17 Bmagic That is a feat that I have yet to claim
10:28 csharp we just bought hanabi for our beach trip last week (though I don't think anyone got around to playing it yet) :-)
10:32 Bmagic csharp++ # The infection spreads
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12:46 Bmagic Anyone out there heard any stories like this one: sending an item in transit, then arriving but the copy is deleted in the database?
12:47 Dyrcona Not that I recall, but it doesn't surprise me.
12:48 Dyrcona You should probably toggle the flag on the In Transit copy status to prevent copy deletion and make sure that staff do not have the override for that.
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12:48 csharp it happens when staff delete a batch of items from a bucket or something (iirc)
12:48 Bmagic Another clue is that the copy had a status of Lost when it was put into transit
12:49 csharp you can check auditor.asset_copy_history to verify
12:49 Dyrcona So, a lost item that wasn't really lost, probably because it wasn't checked in properly.
12:49 Bmagic csharp: yeah, I am looking at that table
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12:49 Dyrcona I'd also check asset.copy for duplicate barcodes.
12:50 Bmagic Dyrcona: I checked that
12:50 Bmagic Just one copy with that barcode
12:50 Dyrcona Bmagic++
12:50 Bmagic Could the system delete the copy under this condition?
12:50 csharp I think it can from a bucket deletion
12:50 Dyrcona Yes, most definitely depending on circumstances.
12:50 Bmagic Checking in a lost copy, triggered a transit and somehow the logic deleted the copy
12:50 csharp that is to say, I have seen the issue you're seeing and that was the cause in the past
12:51 Dyrcona Bmagic: Nope, as csharp says someone deleted the copy, either in a bucket or by itself.
12:51 Dyrcona Nothing in Evergreen just deletes copies.
12:51 Bmagic I am fishing for a system delete, not a human one
12:51 Bmagic ok, just making sure!
12:52 Bmagic I wouldn't think that Evergreen would delete copies out of the blue, but I could see, maybe, somehow it could if the conditions were just perfect
12:52 csharp Bmagic: you might do a query for asset.copy where deleted and edit_date = <the timestamp from the copy in question>
12:52 csharp it would show a batch if there was one
12:53 * Dyrcona was thinking of suggesting that. csharp++
12:53 Bmagic reading auditor.asset_copy_history is confusing sometimes. The row there is the state of the row BEFORE the update. So, when I see deleted=true, I need to look at the timestamp on the row before that?
12:53 Dyrcona Bmagic: Pretty much. The last line where deleted=false is the one that deleted it.
12:54 Bmagic that was way back in 2015!
12:54 Bmagic how in the world would the system allow it to be checked in and go into transit if it was deleted?
12:54 Dyrcona It doesn't have to be checked in to go into transit.
12:54 Bmagic perhaps there is a bug allowing deleted copies to be put in transit?
12:54 Bmagic there is a transit slip
12:54 Dyrcona Could have been a transit hanging around pre-deletion?
12:55 Bmagic printed from the system
12:55 csharp Bmagic: audit_time should be the same as the time of deletion/update
12:55 Dyrcona Yes, there might be such a bug, but I haven't looked lately.
12:55 Bmagic the transit clearly says 7-18-2016
12:55 Bmagic and the copy was recorded deleted "2015-04-10 10:30:01.518181-05"
12:55 Dyrcona It would be easier to delete it after it went into transit than for it to go into transit after being deleted.
12:56 Dyrcona Well, that sounds like a bug.
12:56 csharp Bmagic: I can verify that transit slip printing is squirrely around those situations too
12:56 Bmagic hmmm
12:56 Dyrcona Is the transit still there? What are its dates?
12:56 Bmagic perhaps the combination of it being status lost, and deleted, and wanting to go to a different branch
12:56 Bmagic yes, the transit row is there in the db
12:57 Bmagic with a source send time and no receive time
12:57 Dyrcona Sounds right, it couldn't be checked in to receive the transit because it is deleted.
12:57 Bmagic yep, it won't allow checkin at the destination
12:57 Bmagic so, bug then?
12:58 Dyrcona Well, the bug would be that a deleted copy was able to go into transit, I guess.
12:58 Bmagic yeah, that is what I am thinking
12:58 csharp is the source_send_time earlier than the deletion?
12:59 Bmagic csharp: no, it was deleted april of 2015, and put in transit last week
12:59 csharp weird
12:59 Bmagic very
12:59 Bmagic Confusing for the libraries for sure
13:00 mmorgan Bmagic: Maybe the item was checked in from the patron record?
13:00 Bmagic and me!
13:00 Dyrcona mmorgan++
13:00 Bmagic mmorgan: different logic there?
13:00 Dyrcona That's probably it. The only way to checkin a deleted copy that I know.
13:00 Bmagic you can't just scan the barcode into the checkin box?
13:00 mmorgan Item was lost in 2015. Patron showed up with item. Staff looked up patron. Selected item on patron record and chose Check in/
13:00 csharp another rule of thumb I've learned from this sort of situation - it was almost certainly created by staff actions
13:01 Dyrcona Bmagic: Not different logic as far as transits go.
13:01 bshum Or they were just clearing the item off the record cause the patron claimed they returned it.
13:01 mmorgan Bmagic: A deleted item won't be found when scanned in the checkin box.
13:01 Bmagic but somehow the fact that it's deleted is overlooked when using the patron javascript?
13:01 Dyrcona Bmagic: Not exactly.
13:02 Bmagic It still sounds like a bug to me
13:02 Dyrcona Deleted items show up in items out. If you right click to checkin from the menu, no checks are done on the barcode, etc.
13:03 Dyrcona When you enter a barcode into the normal checkin box, the copy is looked up by barcode. That lookup will fail on deleted copies.
13:03 Dyrcona The real bug is letting staff delete copies that are charged to a patron account.
13:04 * mmorgan would like to see a way to look up a deleted item in the staff client by barcode.
13:04 Dyrcona Scroll back up to my second comment on this discussion. :)
13:04 Dyrcona mmorgan: The only problem with that is you will get more than one copy in some cases, and some interfaces can't handle that.
13:05 Dyrcona Barcodes on deleted items are excluded from the uniqueness checks.
13:06 mmorgan Okay, but maybe if there were a way to look up a deleted item, we wouldn't end up with more than one copy with the same barcode.
13:07 * Dyrcona doubts given past experience. ;)
13:07 Dyrcona Missing "it" in there.
13:07 bshum mmorgan: Except there are cases where libraries reuse barcodes for temporary items or ILLs
13:08 bshum So there might be dozens or hundreds of dupe barcode entries, being deleted and reused over and over
13:08 bshum So I also doubt "it"
13:09 mmorgan Yes, good point. There are certainly legitimate cases for reusing a barcode. Not suggesting that deleted items should *always* be retrieved.
13:09 Dyrcona Actually, IIRC, checkin from items out uses the copy id and not the barcode, which is why no checks are done for deletion, etc.
13:09 bshum We could add some sort of warning maybe to that check if used from the patron out
13:09 Dyrcona Maybe a check box or option on item status to include deleted items.
13:10 bshum And have it say something like, "this item is deleted", but checking it in will still do weird stuff if the item was in an incomplete status
13:10 mmorgan It would be useful for staff to have A way to link a deleted item to a patron. Right now they have none if the item is returned anonymously.
13:10 bshum So no matter what, you'll end up with a problem.  Especially too if the barcode was re-used, so you can't just undelete the item too
13:11 Dyrcona Deleted items show up in items out, but right, they'd have to know the patron in advance.
13:12 mmorgan Dyrcona: An option on item status would be good. That way, they'd be able to find the patron.
13:15 mmorgan bshum: In many cases you wouldn't be able to undelete the item, but giving staff a way to see if a barcode they have in hand was deleted can avoid a lot of confusion.
13:15 * Dyrcona agrees with the latter half of that statement.
13:16 * mmorgan has had many a conversation with confused staff members, trying to check in a barcode and it won't come off the patron's record.
13:16 Dyrcona I did come up with a utility that catalogers at MVLC could use to undelete copies by barcode, but it is rather crude and won't undelete certain things, such as precats.
13:16 mmorgan I'm sure others have had those conversations, too.
13:16 Dyrcona Oh, yes, definitely.
13:17 jeff we treat "deleted item with open circulation" as an anomaly that is reported on and dealt with.
13:17 jeff similar to "item with open circ but Available status"
13:17 Dyrcona And having that same conversation multiple times with the same staff caused the implementation of the flag on copy status to be developed. :)
13:18 Dyrcona jeff: Those are good ideas.
13:19 jeff the latter report today has three items on it: two with stop_fines of CLAIMSRETURNED, one NCIP-related.
13:20 Dyrcona That sounds like "fun."
13:21 mmorgan Another thing that adds to the confusion here. From Items out, choosing Item details retrieves based on barcode.
13:22 mmorgan So when the barcode has been reused, you get details on the current copy, not the deleted one.
13:25 mmorgan jeff++
13:25 mmorgan good ideas for regular reports.
13:33 jeff we're also moving away from freeform entries for some stat cats, but haven't changed the setting yet. in the meantime, we do report when we have a non-standard entry there as well.
13:34 jeff trying to think if we have other examples. i could check the scheduled reports to see what runs that i've forgotten about because there haven't been any results in a while.
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16:10 JBoyer Dyrcona, you still around?
16:11 Dyrcona Yes.
16:14 * Dyrcona worries that JBoyer has a very long question....
16:14 JBoyer Not long, but not good.
16:15 JBoyer NCIPServer doesn't appear to care about password validity, is that known or am I screwing something up?
16:15 Dyrcona That's known.
16:15 JBoyer Ok.
16:15 Dyrcona You could always add that as a feature. :)
16:17 JBoyer I'm planning to, but the next issue is that if you put a "proper" password (including symbols, say). into SHAREit, it drops everything including and after any character it doesn't like and then just reloads the login window because REASONS.
16:17 JBoyer I know that's on AG, I just wanted to vent.
16:18 Dyrcona Right. There are other reasons that NCIPServer doesn't check passwords.
16:18 JBoyer If I put my actual password in, I can't login; if I enter something like 12345 or "hootenanny" I'm in not problem.
16:18 Dyrcona Sounds about right.
16:19 Dyrcona I think, but I'm not sure, that you can ask them (AG) to not ask for passwords.
16:19 JBoyer I'll see if I can get them to do anything about it because holy crap, but I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything important. I guess if I can get this added I'll have to make it a setting in case others have a similar choice to make. :-/
16:19 Dyrcona I thought it was a configuration option that they can do per NCIP remote or whatever.
16:20 JBoyer Thanks for the time, I'll start yelling their way. (and I probably will see about turning passwords off, given their abysmal alternative...)
16:20 Dyrcona Yeah...I'd put in the <patrons> section.
16:21 Dyrcona I could see it being a big problem if they don't properly encode & or some other characters.
16:23 JBoyer That sounds like the most likely problem to pop up first, yeah.
16:24 JBoyer If they would just send the MD5 that would be ideal. Even if it didn't work for any other system it's not like it would be worse than it is now.
16:24 Dyrcona Well, that's all changed recently on the Evergreen side. Not so sure that you want them sending MD5s, anyway.
16:25 Dyrcona And, nobody uses client authentication with NCIP2, because certificates.
16:33 JBoyer I figured as far as Evergreen goes you could still use the MD5 as a starting point since that's what the passwords in-db are before the security upgrade. Not sure yet. I know I'd rather they try to send MD5 than properly XML encode anything.
16:34 JBoyer re: certificates, do you mean in the https sense, or the sort-of-ssh-esque sense?
16:34 JBoyer ssh-key kind of thing, that is.
16:35 Dyrcona Like the ones used for https, you insert the certificate data into the authentication block.
16:35 Dyrcona I forget the tag names, but could look it up.
16:39 jeff that sounds depressing.
16:39 jeff do you control the AG system, or does another organization?
16:40 JBoyer jeff, it's entirely hosted. We have control as in say-so, but not how it works internally.
16:42 JBoyer Dyrcona, that sounds like the worst thing to set up for the general public. (Handy for machine to machine work, though.)
16:42 Dyrcona It is meant for machine to machine.
16:44 Dyrcona In this case "client" is the NCIP client.
16:44 JBoyer Oh, I follow now.
16:47 Dyrcona ! JBoyer: Yep, I knew that, too. :)
16:48 JBoyer Dyrcona, in your case I thought it wouldn't work and you told them to go http only, I specified https and never heard anything about it (until I noticed that my testing server LE cert expired 3 months ago...)
16:48 Dyrcona I guess you don't have to use certificates, but I swear I saw them mentioned in the standard somewhere.
16:48 JBoyer I suppose you could do almost anything that both ends agree on, maybe it was in a draft or mailing list?
16:48 Dyrcona Hmm.....
16:49 Dyrcona Y'know. I think they got SSL working... I don't recall if we had it configured for both SSL and non-SSL at MVLC.
16:50 Dyrcona I know it failed the first time that they tried it with our wildcard cert.
16:51 Dyrcona So, ! doesn't work.
16:51 Dyrcona :)
16:52 Dyrcona They may not properly check certificates.
16:54 Dyrcona Anyway, the fields are SystemAuthentication and AgencyAuthentication.
16:56 Dyrcona Well, FromSystemAuthentication and FromAgencyAuthentication to be absolutely correct. :)
17:01 Dyrcona So long everybody! I'll be back tomorrow.
17:04 jeff well, that got MORE depressing pretty quickly.
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17:18 berick @weather 27712
17:18 pinesol_green berick: Durham, NC :: Mostly Cloudy :: 82F/28C | Heat Index: 87F/31C | Monday: Partly cloudy. Lows overnight in the mid 70s. Monday Night: Some clouds. Low 76F. Winds SSW at 5 to 10 mph. | Updated: 15m ago
17:19 berick huh, google thinks it's 11 degrees hotter right now.
17:19 gsams_ @weather 76262
17:19 pinesol_green gsams_: Roanoke, TX :: Mostly Cloudy :: 97F/36C | Heat Index: 105F/40C | Monday: Partly cloudy. Lows overnight in the upper 70s. Monday Night: A stray shower or thunderstorm is possible early. A few clouds. Low 77F. Winds ESE at 10 to 15 mph. | Updated: 19m ago
17:20 gsams_ huh, could of sworn it was just a few degree shy of standing on the sun a minute ago...
17:22 gsams_ I'm actually even more surprised we've only had 3 100+ degree days this month
17:39 jeff @weather ktvc
17:39 pinesol_green jeff: Cherry Capital, MI :: Scattered Clouds :: 83F/28C | Heat Index: 83F/28C | Monday: Mainly clear. Lows overnight in the low 60s. Monday Night: A clear sky. Low 62F. Winds NW at 10 to 15 mph, becoming SW and decreasing to less than 5 mph. | Updated: 46m ago
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