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IRC log for #evergreen, 2016-04-27

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All times shown according to the server's local time.

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07:29 graced Happy Wednesday #evergreen
07:29 graced @coffee
07:29 * pinesol_green brews and pours a cup of Sumatra Golden Mandheling, and sends it sliding down the bar to graced
07:29 graced mmmmm
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08:01 rhamby_ @brains
08:01 pinesol_green rhamby_: Message root @ server God....Universe going down for reboot....
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08:01 rhamby_ We need an @brains
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09:45 kmlussier rhamby_: I'm not sure about the @brains plugin. Since coffee is what gets my brain working, I was thinking it would suffice.
09:46 rhamby_ kmlussier: I had a sleepless night of a child coughing and feeling miserable.  I think zombie like enough that I might need the actual brains.
09:47 kmlussier rhamby_: Ugh, sorry to hear that.
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10:16 kmlussier I've tested the fix for bug 1564079 and it looks good to me. I want to make sure I handle the database bits correctly when I merge it.
10:16 pinesol_green Launchpad bug 1564079 in Evergreen "Checkout history fails on serials checkouts / deleted copies" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1564079 - Assigned to Kathy Lussier (klussier)
10:16 berick kmlussier++
10:16 kmlussier It looks like the upgrade script was modified directly for most of the changes, and the only upgrade script I need to stamp is schema.fix_circ_history_copy_ref.sql. Is that correct?
10:17 * berick looks
10:18 berick kmlussier: yep
10:18 kmlussier OK, I'm on it.
10:18 kmlussier berick++
10:19 berick well, XXXX.schema.fix_circ_history_copy_ref.sql needs to be renamed and the commented section at the top needs to be uncommanted and given the right number
10:19 berick and 002.schema.config.sql needs to be updated too
10:20 kmlussier berick: Yeah, I got that part. Thanks!
10:22 berick <mrburns>excellent</>
10:26 kmlussier berick: Somehow, I have a hard time picturing you as a Mr. Burns. You need to up your evil a bit.
10:30 berick more evil.. okily dokily!
10:32 kmlussier Calling 0976
10:34 Dyrcona :)
10:37 csharp @quote add <berick> more evil.. okily dokily!
10:37 pinesol_green csharp: The operation succeeded.  Quote #150 added.
10:39 miker collum (and someone else that pointed it out ... don't recall who): thanks for pointing out the thinko (and typo) in my slide!  it's updated for archiving :)
10:41 pinesol_green [evergreen|Bill Erickson] LP#1564079 Checkout history handles serials - <http://git.evergreen-ils.org/?p=​Evergreen.git;a=commit;h=6479b57>
10:41 pinesol_green [evergreen|Bill Erickson] LP#1564079 Checkout history skips nonexistent items - <http://git.evergreen-ils.org/?p=​Evergreen.git;a=commit;h=83c9572>
10:41 pinesol_green [evergreen|Kathy Lussier] LP#1564079 Stamping upgrade script - <http://git.evergreen-ils.org/?p=​Evergreen.git;a=commit;h=0938058>
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11:07 rlefaive awitter, csharp: y’all were right! apt-get install evergreen ran just fine when i installed Ubuntu from an .iso.
11:10 awitter rlefaive nice!!
11:11 csharp rlefaive: we'll look into making it work with vagrant/vbox
11:12 rlefaive csharp++ awitter++
11:14 awitter rlefaive thanks for testing this
11:16 Dyrcona rlefaive: Did you install to a virtual machine or to actual hardware?
11:17 rlefaive it was a virtual machine (virtualbox on my mac), but I suffered through the purple-screen install steps instead of using vagrant up.
11:17 jeff what basebox were you using with vagrant?
11:17 Dyrcona Thanks. I thought it was a VM, but just wanted to make sure.
11:17 jeff er, sorry -- "basebox" might be the wrong term.
11:18 jeff (that might have been a veewee thing -- it's been a while)
11:18 rlefaive jeff: no it’s right, “ubuntu/trusty64”
11:18 jeff rlefaive: and when you installed ubuntu from an iso, which iso did you use?
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11:18 Bmagic So, when checking in items with anmesty turned on, it looks like the system is both voiding the original billing AND account_adjusting payments in the opposite amount, resulting in a negative balance.
11:19 rlefaive jeff: “64-bit PC (AMD64) server install image” downloaded from http://releases.ubuntu.com/14.04/
11:19 Dyrcona Bmagic: I've not seen that. Did you enable the prohibit negative balances setting(s)?
11:20 * mmorgan1 has not seen that either
11:20 Dyrcona I can say that staff manually voiding a billing can/will create a negative balance despite the settings if the bill has been paid.
11:21 Bmagic Dyrcona: well, that makes me feel better, I need to take a closer look
11:25 Bmagic Dyrcona: the account_adjustments occurred 2-17 (lost action trigger), and the voiding occurred during the checkin 4-20. So, amnesty did the voiding upon checkin. It acted upon billing rows that were essentially already voided by the account_adjustment payments already
11:26 Bmagic no, we are not using the prohibit negative balance settings
11:27 Dyrcona Bmagic: Well, there you go. ;)
11:27 Dyrcona Bmagic: You will still get negative balances if you don't turn on the settings.
11:27 Bmagic should amnesty know about the account_adjustments though? It should be smart?
11:28 Dyrcona Assuming the account adjustments were for overdue fines, I really don't know.
11:28 Bmagic or perhaps the amnesty setting should be changed (like the rest of the code) to use account_adjustment instead of void
11:28 Bmagic yeah, 100 overdue fines for .05
11:29 Dyrcona We already have staff complaining that account adjustment shows up as a payment, so I'd argue "No" for amnesty using an adjustment.
11:29 Dyrcona So, the patron has a negative balance of $5.00?
11:29 Bmagic yep!
11:29 * csharp is now testing ubuntu/trusty64 on vagrant so we can compare with base ubuntu installs from ISO
11:30 awitter csharp++  apt-get install evergreen-ils should work in all cases
11:30 Dyrcona So, lost didn't just void the overdue billings....
11:31 Dyrcona dbwells took this branch over from me and added the account adjustments.
11:32 Dyrcona I totally rearranged billing and turned voids into a form of payment also, so that may have ended up more confusing for staff.
11:32 jeff Making some UI changes to help prevent some of that confusion might be a worthwhile undertaking.
11:32 Dyrcona It sounds to me like this is an unintended side effect, i.e. a bug, but I can't really say.
11:33 Dyrcona jeff: I could move the details from our RT ticket to Launchpad.
11:33 jeff I know some changes had been discussed, but I suppose they didn't make it into the scope of the (large amount of) work that was undertaken.
11:34 * mmorgan is confused. Should the account_adjustment payment type get used at all if none of the Prohibit negative balance settings are set?
11:35 * Dyrcona is not sure.
11:37 jeff mmorgan: ideally yes (or a similar payment type), likely current reality unknown.
11:37 jeff billings and payments, debits and credits... however you want to name them.
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11:42 kmlussier mmorgan: Yes, account_adjustment payment type is used for something even if Prohibit negative balance settings are not set. I can't remember where they come up.
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11:43 kmlussier Dyrcona: Also, on  still being able to create negative balances if staff void a billing, the resolution we came up with at the time was to provide two separate permissions for voiding and account adjustment. If you don't want negative balances, you probably should take away the void permission.
11:43 * kmlussier can't remember if she documented that fact or not.
11:44 kmlussier I know I intended to document it, but best laid plans...
11:45 mmorgan Some of our libraries intentionally create negative balances by voiding individual billings. In this way they can refund on a case by case basis.
11:47 Dyrcona kmlussier: Yep, not sure if it was documented, but we adjusted permissions at the time of our upgrade and documented the new feature for our staff.
11:47 kmlussier Yes, I added it to the release notes.
11:48 kmlussier I still want to do a better job of revamping the billing documentation overall. I started it around the 2.9 release. I should finish it.
11:49 jeff maybe it could coincide with billing fixes for the next release. :-)
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11:49 kmlussier Also from the release notes: "The account adjustment payment type will also be used for all libraries, regardless of the state of negative balance settings, in cases where overdue fines are adjusted when an overdue item is marked lost."
11:50 jeff i expect that we're going to be upgrading to 2.10 with some changes to billing. i don't know how extensive those are going to need to be for us.
11:51 Dyrcona jeff: We should have just sat down over beers at the conference and refactored the whole thing. :p
11:51 Dyrcona By "whole thing" I mean all of circ, including holds and billing. :)
11:51 mmorgan Is there a board game for that? ;-)
11:52 Dyrcona :)
11:52 jeff Evergreen Hack-a-way Snowpiercer Edition: Sponsored by Amtrak
11:52 jeff at the end of the next hack-a-way, a group of individuals board an Amtrak train and don't get off the train until it's done.
11:53 Dyrcona hah
11:53 kmlussier I think I took that Amtrak train to Raleigh.
11:53 Dyrcona On Amtrak they may not get off anyway.
11:54 bshum jeff: When we start eating bugs, I'll be concerned...
11:54 berick when they finally depart the train, it's a snowy post-apocalyptic wasteland.
11:55 Dyrcona That reminds me of a Youtube video I watched last night about moving to Canada....
11:55 berick heh
11:56 Dyrcona "How much of this area here is inhabitable? None of it! That's why they call it, Nunavut."
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12:03 Dyrcona Lunch time!
12:09 maryj jeff++ # hackaway snowpiercer edition.I  laughed really hard at that.
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12:33 Dyrcona So, one of our directors said something at a meeting yesterday that made me curious about Mass. law and overdue library books, and the law is pretty harsh.
12:34 Dyrcona It turns out that if you don't return a lost item within 30 days of being notified that it is overdue, you can be fined from $100 to $500 per item, in addition to replacement cost and processing fees!
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12:37 Dyrcona Bmagic's question earlier reminded me of yesterday's conversation.
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13:02 gmcharlt EvergreenCatalogs++ # http://list.evergreen-ils.org/pipermail/ev​ergreen-catalogers/2016-April/000622.html
13:06 bshum Should add that to concerto later :)
13:07 bshum Along with the first book of Evergreen in action
13:10 rhamby_ If I'd thought about someone cataloging it I would have put in a more cataloger friendly credits page.  Next year....
13:27 csharp @quote add <jeff> Evergreen Hack-a-way Snowpiercer Edition: Sponsored by Amtrak
13:27 pinesol_green csharp: The operation succeeded.  Quote #151 added.
13:36 csharp rlefaive: I can confirm the "apache2 instance did not start within 20 seconds" issue on vagrant ubuntu/trusty64
13:36 csharp now looking to see what I can find out
13:50 jeffdavis Conceptually, what is a serial item vs a serial unit?
13:52 jeffdavis I see in the db that a unit can have one or more items, but I'm not really clear on what an item "is".
13:52 tsbere jeffdavis: Item or Issuance?
13:52 kmlussier item
13:53 * tsbere knows about issuances and units, but apparently never dug in enough to know about items
13:53 kmlussier jeffdavis: There's an old IRC log that talks about this, but, from memory, I know you can have multiple items in a unit. Think serials binding.
13:53 jeffdavis kmlussier: ah, of course! that makes perfect sense, thanks
13:54 kmlussier jeffdavis: I'm glad it makes perfect sense to you. My head hurts whenever anyone asks me the question. :)
13:55 jeffdavis heh, well, maybe "perfect sense" is an overstatement :P
13:55 jeffdavis So, to simplify you have a subscription which has issuances (issues), and physical copies of the issues, but multiple issues can circulate as a single copy (unit) so barcodes are attached to units.
13:56 Bmagic Dyrcona: yes, the lost action trigger added account_adjustments (now instead of void in eg2.9) and slapped the lost fee on top
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14:11 jeffdavis collum: my replies to your email are being rejected; short answer is you need Client and Patron Authentication, but not Granted
14:15 kmlussier Hmmm...I often use Google to search old IRC logs. But lately, Google isn't pulling up older content back before 2013 when we moved to the newer logging. I wonder if there's a problem preventing Google from crawling those old logs.
14:15 kmlussier We still link to them on the IRC page.
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14:17 bshum kmlussier: It wouldn't surprise me if the old logs aren't being indexed cause they're boring raw text or some other reasons.   Like maybe how the irc_logs directory isn't defined in the sitemap.xml that's generated for robots.txt
14:18 bshum kmlussier: Long term project continues to be migrating all that old log content into ilbot's database to be indexed in the "new" (yeah, okay...) IRC log site.
14:19 jihpringle does anyone know what "Concept URI" is for in the context of Coded Value Maps?  It appeared sometime after 2.8 but I don't see anything in the 2.9 or 2.10 release notes
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14:23 kmlussier I guess that's another reason why it's a bad idea to keep documentation buried in IRC logs. :(
14:25 berick jihpringle: does this help?  http://git.evergreen-ils.org/?p=Ev​ergreen.git;a=commitdiff;h=73be52e​6d2f8fdaa1c0867271b5428a95803a289
14:25 pinesol_green berick: [evergreen|Galen Charlton] LP#1442815: teach record attributes about SKOS - <http://git.evergreen-ils.org/?p=​Evergreen.git;a=commit;h=73be52e>
14:26 jihpringle yes, thanks berick
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14:35 csharp rlefaive: we're seeing that the ubuntu/trusty64 vagrant vbox image is 512MB RAM - how much RAM are you allocating when you install ubuntu from ISO manually?
14:36 awitter .
14:36 rlefaive csharp: a fair bit more than that… 2686 MB (must have dragged the slider...)
14:37 csharp rlefaive: yeah 2G is more what's actually needed
14:37 rlefaive csharp: does it work on ubuntu/trusty64 if you bump the RAM? If you haven’t tried, I will.
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14:38 * Dyrcona finds 2GB generally too small. I go with 4GB or 8GB.
14:39 gmcharlt agreed; 4GB is the minimum nowadays for a standalone
14:40 csharp rlefaive: trying that now - gonna start wih 2G
14:40 csharp I agree that 4G
14:40 csharp is a good minimum, but that may not be available on a laptop
14:41 csharp and you *can* run it on 2G, but not super happily ;-)
14:42 berick i typically build 2G VM's for dev.  never been much of an issue.
14:42 Dyrcona I had services dying all the time when I actually tried to do anything. Had to drop things to minimums.
14:43 Dyrcona But then, I run some crazy scripts. :)
14:44 csharp rlefaive: 2G worked for me - upped the RAM and did 'apt-get -f install'
14:44 rlefaive csharp: awesome!
14:45 csharp theoretically it's up and running (though it's NAT-ed at the moment so I'm not able to access it in a browser)
14:45 rlefaive csharp: haha, i had the same thing when I made the “clean install” version. _facepalm_
14:46 csharp yeah - the good news is that vbox makes bridging super easy
14:52 * csharp said that before trying to do it in vbox and totally borking vagrant in the process :-/
14:53 rlefaive csharp: is it possible to put the apt-get install evergreen in a vagrant provision (i.e. a script be able to pass it values for the opensrf passwords etc.)? My vagrant-fu is weak.
14:54 csharp I'll be honest and tell you that my first experience with vagrant was this morning ;-) but I'll place my faith in open source and say "I'm sure it'll work" :-)
14:55 rlefaive woohoo! It works beautifully! Thank you all for your help!
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14:56 csharp rlefaive: awesome
14:57 csharp rlefaive: thanks for working with us on it!
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15:08 Bmagic Is there a bug doing a title advanced search and the results default to "keyword" in the dropdown?
15:11 kmlussier Bmagic: A possible variation of bug 1005040 ?
15:11 pinesol_green Launchpad bug 1005040 in Evergreen "TPAC: eliminate advanced search filters from subsequent basic search box" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1005040
15:12 Bmagic yep, that's it
15:12 kmlussier Basically, all those advanced search fields and limiters are thrown into the text-entry box since the search form doesn't have as many bells and whistles of the advanced search page.
15:12 Bmagic kmlussier++ # finger on the bug pulse
15:12 kmlussier Bmagic: ESI is going to be doing some work for us on that bug at some point.
15:13 Bmagic right on!
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15:45 jeffdavis dbwells: I'm revisiting bug 1429317, do you have a moment to chat about it?
15:45 pinesol_green Launchpad bug 1429317 in Evergreen "Serials in holdings view should be able to sort in ascending and descending order as well as by call number" [Wishlist,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1429317
15:46 jeffdavis just trying to wrap my head around the basics
15:48 hbrennan jeffdavis++ Yaaaaaay! No more April issues hogging the first 10 results! That would be awesome.
15:53 gmcharlt Dyrcona: kmlussier: berick: as a heads-up, I'll be ready to cut 2.10.2 tomorrow.
15:53 Dyrcona I'll be in and out of the office tomorrow.
15:55 Dyrcona BTW, I'm signing off on lp 1569884, it could be included in this round of updates.
15:55 pinesol_green Launchpad bug 1569884 in Evergreen 2.9 "Reusing deleted monograph parts" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1569884
15:55 gmcharlt +1
15:55 Dyrcona There are no notes or tests, but we're using the upgrade script version in production.
15:57 kmlussier jeffdavis: I don't know how far you got in your explorations, but in answer to one of the questions Liam asked, there is a serials compressed holdings view that sorts the serials holdings display by date.
15:58 kmlussier jeffdavis: We don't use that display because of bug 963341. I actually don't think the patch that came with the bug fixes the problem originally reported. I'll have to look into it at some point and file a new one if needed.
15:58 pinesol_green Launchpad bug 963341 in Evergreen "Allow the JSPac and TPac to display both MFHD records and Serial Control/Alternate records," [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/963341
16:01 jeffdavis The compressed holdings view is the "Issues Held" area at the bottom of a page like this, right? https://bwlcr.bc.catalogue.libraries.coop/eg​/opac/record/108220410?expand=issues#issues
16:02 kmlussier Yeah.
16:02 kmlussier Did anyone take notes at the hackfest when we were talking about search? I have a hard time taking notes while I'm talking.
16:04 kmlussier jeffdavis: Since it's displaying that way in your catalog, I guess that means you've found that setting, then. ;)
16:04 jeffdavis Well, we have Liam's patch applied in our production environment. But the patch doesn't apply cleanly to 2.10, so I am taking another look at the issue to see if it's feasible to reimplement something that will be more acceptable upstream alongside our 2.10 upgrade.
16:05 rlefaive kmlussier: i tried but was too distracted by the conversation. ;)
16:06 jeffdavis The compressed holdings display seems like a useful way of sorting serial holdings, but I am unclear how we could integrate what it's doing into the main holdings display.
16:06 kmlussier We really like that display here. We once talked over an idea of totally removing the copies display when there are issues on the record and moving the issues display up higher in the record.
16:06 kmlussier Do we really need two different displays on the same record showing users what is available?
16:07 jeffdavis How would you handle a scenario where a record has both regular copies and serial units attached?
16:08 kmlussier jeffdavis: Yeah, well, there's that. And, now that you mention it, we will always have a mix of libraries that use serials and those that just add copies through cataloging.
16:08 jeff display both with the copies above the others, since "having copies in addition to serial units" is the uncommon case?
16:09 kmlussier No, I don't think it is the uncommon case for the consortia I work with.
16:09 jeff i suppose it depends on the ou scope.
16:09 jeffdavis for my example record above, one branch in the system has issues attached as regular copies, the other 2 branches have serial units
16:10 jeff at the top level in consortia with mixed practices, certainly "both" is going to be more common.
16:10 jeff but at the system scope the practices are less likely to be mixed, excepting when migrating practices...
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16:10 jeff yeah, i've talked myself out of believing the validity of my original assertion.
16:11 jeffdavis heh
16:11 kmlussier And when your consortium strongly encourages people to search at the top level because they're usually doing it from home where they can place holds?
16:11 jeffdavis kmlussier: what was it you were saying earlier about serials and headaches? :)
16:12 Dyrcona Just for reference: On a trusty vm running concerto with default settings and the database running on another server, I'm presently seeing 2.1GB in use, and that is with the cache subtracted out.
16:13 jeff kmlussier: in the case of serials, do the users have the ability then to choose between a copy hold and an issuance hold?
16:14 * Dyrcona should always remember to ispell-buffer before "saving" a commit message.
16:14 * jeff muses on the ability to disable title holds on certain records
16:15 jeff holds on parts don't deal with part-equivalency across org units (I learned that a little bit ago), but now I can't remember without looking if issuance holds handle that kind of thing.
16:16 jeff "give me this issue, i don't care if it's bound with other issues at these other libraries or available on its own at this other library", etc.
16:17 jeff I *thought* that issuance holds deal with all of that (with the exception of things that are cataloged as copies), but I was wrong about parts holds also.
16:18 berick certainly placing org-spanning issue-level holds was addressed.  ("give me june 2015 Newsweek from anywhere").  don't recall the details OTTOMH
16:19 berick but it was one of the core use cases for serials
16:22 kmlussier jeff: I'm not a good person to ask because, like I said, we don't use the compressed view, which is the one that allows issuance holds.
16:22 jeff berick: good! i was wrong on that about parts, so happy to hear i wasn't wrong about serials. :-)
16:22 dbs ungh, after a copy has been added, you can't use the GUI to go back and assign a part to it, right?
16:22 kmlussier For one consortium, they are using parts for their serials. I don't think the other has found a good way to handle holds yet.
16:22 kmlussier dbs: Sure you can.
16:23 dbs kmlussier: i've tried "Holdings Maintenance -> Edit items", no dice
16:23 kmlussier dbs: But it may be in a not-so-intuitive place. Replace barcode maybe?
16:23 jeff kmlussier: and in the case of parts-for-serials, there isn't cross-org handling for holds, right?
16:23 * kmlussier doesn't have a client open.
16:24 kmlussier jeff: Yes, you can place parts holds across org units. In fact, that's one of the reasons that consortium decided to use parts.
16:24 kmlussier We were under the impression at the time that issuance holds weren't across org units. But I was recently informed we were mistaken.
16:24 dbs mmm. Item status -> Actions for cataloguers -> Edit items/volumes per bib
16:25 * kmlussier looks
16:26 jeff kmlussier: okay, that's because parts are created at a common ancestor, right?
16:27 JBoyer They have no org unit, they're all universal.
16:27 jeff so it's not the cross-org bit that's absent from parts, it's the part (or subpart) equivalency, like "disc 1 is contained in both of these parts".
16:27 jeff JBoyer: ah.
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16:29 kmlussier dbs: Yeah, Edit items/volumes per bib will get you there too. If you don't default to the unified volume/copy editor, then "Replace Barcode" from holdings maintenance will also work.
16:29 kmlussier If you do default to the unified editor, then you can just click to edit items.
16:29 kmlussier Looking forward to just one edit interface in webby to simplify things a bit.
16:36 dbs kmlussier++ # thanks, "Replace barcode" is a bit unintuitive :) I had 20 copies with 20 separate callnums to assign parts to and unify callnums, so the bulk "Edit items/volumes per bib" did the trick in one shot
16:37 dbs People are still getting used to parts here, so even when I create the catalogue record & the parts in advance and say "please use the Computer & Charger parts for a single callnum" they sometimes fall back to old habits
16:38 dbs (not to mention "LC" callnum type for accession callnums of "1001", "1002", etc... heh)
16:44 kmlussier dbs: Yeah, we tested parts at the same time we were testing the unified volume/copy editor, so I didn't notice the "unintuitive for non-unified-editor users" piece until others started using the feature.
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17:08 gmcharlt_ buildmaster
17:08 gmcharlt_ *cough*
17:08 gmcharlt_ pretend I succesffully did ctrl-F there
17:08 gmcharlt_ buildmaster
17:08 kmlussier Ha ha. I'm glad I'm not the only one who does that.
17:09 gmcharlt_ *sigh* I am not UIing very well today, evidently
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18:01 dbwells jeffdavis: Sorry I missed your serials discussion earlier.  On my way out right now, but would be happy to help push forward on some of this soon.
18:02 jeffdavis dbwells: great, thanks - I'll update the LP ticket and maybe bug you on IRC tomorrow?
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18:04 dbwells Also, for anyone asking/wondering earlier, IIRC, issuance holds will span as many org units as the "subscription" spans, since that is where issuances attach.  If you have consortial subs, the hold will target any matching unit, but if you have a subscription set up at e.g. a branch, your issuance holds will only get filled by that branch's units.
18:06 dbwells jeffdavis: For IRC, I should be much more around on Friday
18:10 kimo_sabe anyone familiar enough with the booking module to explain the need for a bit of logic? I'm unclear why canceling a reservation should check-in the item
18:14 kimo_sabe there's a perl "==" vs "eq" bug there that is triggering the checkin every time but I can't wrap my head around why canceling a reservation in the future should silently return an item that hasn't been returned
18:25 kimo_sabe miker: git blames you way back in 2010
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19:08 jeff dbwells: thanks for the detail re: issuance holds.
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