| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 05:29 |
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| 08:03 |
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| 08:07 |
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| 08:30 |
kmlussier |
I'm reading the improved password management section of the release notes. |
| 08:32 |
kmlussier |
Is there a specific range that can be used for the encryption work factor? |
| 08:40 |
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| 08:42 |
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| 08:42 |
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| 08:46 |
kmlussier |
Looks like the security certificate on Planet Evergreen expired 2 days ago |
| 08:48 |
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| 08:53 |
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| 08:58 |
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| 09:07 |
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| 09:12 |
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| 09:18 |
dbs |
kmlussier: crap |
| 09:18 |
* dbs |
fires up letsencrypt |
| 09:19 |
csharp |
letsencrypt++ |
| 09:20 |
* dbs |
has a long list of letsencrypt domains and renewed most of them a few weeks back but obviously missed that one |
| 09:21 |
csharp |
I didn't know that Let's Encrypt was moving to the EFF: https://letsencrypt.org/2016/03/09/le-client-new-home.html |
| 09:22 |
csharp |
sounds like a good fit |
| 09:23 |
Dyrcona |
New name for letsencrypt: "All your site are belong to us?" |
| 09:24 |
csharp |
All your encrypt are belong to EFF |
| 09:24 |
Dyrcona |
csharp++ |
| 09:25 |
dbs |
fix0red |
| 09:25 |
csharp |
dbs++ |
| 09:25 |
dbs |
kmlussier++ |
| 09:26 |
dbs |
(and added into the long list of domains under that single cert, so that at renewal time they all renew or fail together) |
| 09:28 |
Dyrcona |
Speaking of crypto, I will likely revoke the GPG keys for jstephenson mvlc.org this week. |
| 09:28 |
* Dyrcona |
is getting a new work email address. |
| 09:28 |
Dyrcona |
Not that anyone but me ever encrypts anything to my work email address. |
| 09:31 |
dbwells |
kmlussier: I don't think there is any "limit", the goal is to fill more time to prevent brute force, but not to make it so long that it increases load or annoys users. Check out this article: http://wildlyinaccurate.com/bcrypt-choosing-a-work-factor/ |
| 09:31 |
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| 09:31 |
dbwells |
kmlussier: So the factor you choose depends on how fast your machine is, and how tolerant you are of the various confounding factors. |
| 09:32 |
dbwells |
Maybe some of this is covered in the release notes, I don't recall. |
| 09:33 |
kmlussier |
dbwells: So one could set it from 1 to whatever? |
| 09:33 |
kmlussier |
I'm mostly asking for the release notes. If there were a specific range, it should probably be noted there, but it sounds like there isn't. |
| 09:34 |
kmlussier |
dbs++ |
| 09:34 |
dbwells |
kmlussier: That's right, although it does grow very quickly in time needed. |
| 09:34 |
kmlussier |
dbwells: Yes, that bit is explained well in the release notes. Thanks! |
| 09:34 |
kmlussier |
dbwells++ |
| 09:34 |
Dyrcona |
It's funny, but staff do not like that patron passwords are encrypted in the database. |
| 09:35 |
Dyrcona |
They liked being able to tell a patron what their password was on the old system. |
| 09:35 |
yboston |
kmlussier: are you thinking about docuemneting that password feature or just asking about it in general. I was researching how to best document it yesterday. |
| 09:35 |
yboston |
kmlussier: If you are thinking about documenting it I can share an email exchange I had will Bill about it |
| 09:35 |
kmlussier |
yboston: I'm reviewing the release notes. |
| 09:36 |
dbwells |
Dyrcona: well, they can still tell the patrons what their passwords are on the old system :P |
| 09:36 |
Dyrcona |
dbwells: No, it has been gone for 5 years. It's on a tape, locked in my desk. |
| 09:37 |
yboston |
kmlussier: ok |
| 09:38 |
dbwells |
Dyrcona: just teasing. Though we still have our old Sirsi box taking up space under a desk here. The ultimate backup, I guess :) |
| 09:38 |
Dyrcona |
:) |
| 09:38 |
Dyrcona |
Actually, I tried restoring the database to a developer install of Sybase, and no luck. |
| 09:39 |
Dyrcona |
The database wouldn't load because the server didn't like the character set. |
| 09:39 |
Dyrcona |
The only instructions that I could find for changing the character set required the database to be loaded. |
| 09:39 |
Dyrcona |
I also didn't find the option to make a database with a certain character set. |
| 09:40 |
Dyrcona |
That was in 2011, so it's kind of pointless, now. :) |
| 09:41 |
Dyrcona |
Anyway, sometimes the dual missions of serving the patron and protecting the patron's privacy can clash. |
| 09:45 |
dbs |
That's why I focused relatively early on on making a reasonably secure, reasonably convenient password reset mechanism (obvious caveat: for those with email) |
| 09:46 |
dbs |
To Protect And Serve |
| 09:49 |
kmlussier |
gmcharlt: Does your freeze include changes to release notes? I'm doing a quick read-through this morning and may have some tweaks. |
| 09:49 |
Dyrcona |
kmlussier: I would consider release notes to be documentation and I believe gmcharlt said those were OK. |
| 09:56 |
gmcharlt |
kmlussier: yes, that's fine (and Dyrcona's interpretation is the same as my own) |
| 10:03 |
Dyrcona |
That's nice. apt-get update is returning an error that I usually from upgrade and that typically requires an update to fix. :( |
| 10:09 |
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| 10:28 |
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Christineb joined #evergreen |
| 10:35 |
jwoodard |
ok I must be going insane |
| 10:36 |
jwoodard |
Is there a setting for auto renewing items? I thought I saw one and now it has disappeared. |
| 10:40 |
tsbere |
jwoodard: What kind of auto-renew? |
| 10:41 |
* tsbere |
thinks there is a "renew if you try and check it back out to the patron who has it already checked out" type setup....with a setting affecting when it will |
| 10:42 |
jwoodard |
tsbere: I know of the setting you mentioned. I was thinking more along the lines of auto-renewing items checked out when it reach it due date(assuming it has renewals left). |
| 10:42 |
tsbere |
jwoodard: I know of proposals for such a thing, but no actual feature having been completed. |
| 10:45 |
jwoodard |
tsbere: thanks! Guess I was dreaming. |
| 10:53 |
* Dyrcona |
should have done a parallel attribute reingest. |
| 10:53 |
Dyrcona |
The simple one from the upgrade script is still running after about 24 hours. |
| 10:54 |
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| 10:56 |
kmlussier |
Dyrcona: That's the one from 0967? |
| 10:56 |
Dyrcona |
Yes. |
| 10:57 |
Dyrcona |
It depends on your server, and this isn't running in production. |
| 11:11 |
pinesol_green |
[evergreen|Jane Sandberg] docs: Adding section about facet_groups in advanced search - <http://git.evergreen-ils.org/?p=Evergreen.git;a=commit;h=5e24cf1> |
| 11:11 |
pinesol_green |
[evergreen|Jane Sandberg] docs: Adding instructions for setting up due time in the patron's myopac display - <http://git.evergreen-ils.org/?p=Evergreen.git;a=commit;h=b59bba3> |
| 11:11 |
pinesol_green |
[evergreen|Jane Sandberg] docs: reorganizing, adding information about importing authority records using vandelay - <http://git.evergreen-ils.org/?p=Evergreen.git;a=commit;h=03dc051> |
| 11:15 |
* tsbere |
dislikes seeing replies to gitadmin emails that he doesn't appear to have received |
| 11:15 |
tsbere |
I even went back to the date of the original email. Nada. :( |
| 11:19 |
* dbs |
received the original email but dropped the ball |
| 11:32 |
jeff |
iptables -I INPUT -m shape --shape sphere -J DROP |
| 11:35 |
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| 12:07 |
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| 12:21 |
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| 12:28 |
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brahmina joined #evergreen |
| 12:35 |
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| 12:42 |
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| 12:48 |
kmlussier |
dbs: I've noticed that Planet Evergreen hasn't been posting to Twitter lately. I had updated the feed a while back to use https so that it now uses https://planet-evergreen.coffeecode.net/atom.xml. However, that name isn't included on the certificate. |
| 12:48 |
kmlussier |
Am I using the right address? |
| 13:06 |
dbs |
kmlussier: uh, I would use https://planet.evergreen-ils.org/atom.xml |
| 13:06 |
kmlussier |
dbs: Awesome! Thanks! |
| 13:08 |
kmlussier |
dbs: So that leads to my next question. On the blog itself, should this bit be updated?: |
| 13:08 |
kmlussier |
<link rel="alternate" href="http://planet-evergreen.coffeecode.net/atom.xml" title="" type="application/atom+xml"> |
| 13:15 |
dbs |
Yes it probably should |
| 13:15 |
dbs |
As I've suggested in the past, it would be a great additional project for the web team to move over to a dedicated server. |
| 13:16 |
dbs |
Very limited time available on my part, alas |
| 13:23 |
* dbs |
tries making a quick tweak to the planet config, hopefully will be fixed in the next ten minutes or so |
| 13:24 |
kmlussier |
dbs++ |
| 13:40 |
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| 13:49 |
pinesol_green |
[evergreen|Galen Charlton] LP#1367926: fix syntax error in DB update script - <http://git.evergreen-ils.org/?p=Evergreen.git;a=commit;h=9b38c45> |
| 13:54 |
gmcharlt |
performing an upgrade on demo.evergreencatalog.com |
| 13:54 |
gmcharlt |
dbs: by any chance, is it something where you could in effect toss us a tarball of settings and some sketch notes for the planet? |
| 13:57 |
kmlussier |
gmcharlt++ |
| 13:59 |
jeff |
or a .tf file... |
| 14:00 |
jeff |
(.tf files are what Terraform uses, and it's a planet...) |
| 14:02 |
jeff |
@eightball should the joke be taken out back and shot? |
| 14:02 |
pinesol_green |
jeff: No chance. |
| 14:02 |
jeff |
pinesol_green++ |
| 14:10 |
Lertze |
May I derail with an opensrf install question? |
| 14:11 |
gmcharlt |
Lertze: go for it |
| 14:12 |
krvmga_ |
staff client question: Admin > Workstation Administration > Toolbars > Configure Toolbars - where is the size of the settings window controlled from? |
| 14:12 |
dbs |
gmcharlt: https://planet.evergreen-ils.org/opml.xml is the core of what you need for any RSS feed aggregator, everything else is almost stock |
| 14:12 |
gmcharlt |
dbs: got it, thanks |
| 14:12 |
krvmga_ |
I ask because someone just came to me to say they couldn't see all the buttons and there's no scrollbar. |
| 14:13 |
Lertze |
Just as you say that the command that was hanging goes through let me see if opensrf.math is working |
| 14:13 |
gmcharlt |
Lertze: *quack* ;) |
| 14:14 |
tsbere |
krvmga_: I would assume Open-ILS/xul/staff_client/server/admin/toolbar.xul or a CSS file referencing elements within said xul file |
| 14:19 |
pinesol_green |
[evergreen|Bill Erickson] LP#1557621 Verify password barcode / deleted users repair - <http://git.evergreen-ils.org/?p=Evergreen.git;a=commit;h=0568191> |
| 14:20 |
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| 14:22 |
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| 14:22 |
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| 14:24 |
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| 14:24 |
yboston |
FYI, there is going to be an IRC practice time starting starting soon (3 PM EST) |
| 14:25 |
yboston |
it will last unitl the start of the EG search discussion |
| 14:25 |
kmlussier |
yboston: The practice session starts at 2:30, right? |
| 14:25 |
yboston |
sorry, I mistyped; start at 2:30 PM, the search sessions start at 3 Pm EST :( |
| 14:26 |
kmlussier |
yboston++ |
| 14:26 |
krvmga_ |
tsbere++ |
| 14:29 |
* tsbere |
assumes krvmga_ found what he was looking for |
| 14:31 |
yboston |
welcome to anyone that is here on IRC for the first time |
| 14:31 |
yboston |
Click this link for a presentation I made explaining how to get started with IRC: http://goo.gl/w3zml2 |
| 14:32 |
yboston |
(this message will be repeated several times before the start of the seacrh session) |
| 14:32 |
yboston |
if this is you first time on IRC, pelase say hello by just typing your message |
| 14:33 |
yboston |
for our regular IRC users, feel free to have short conversations until new users log in |
| 14:33 |
kmlussier |
@dessert |
| 14:33 |
* pinesol_green |
grabs some Cookies and Cream Ice Cream for kmlussier |
| 14:34 |
remingtron |
kmlussier: Ooooo, you got my favorite |
| 14:34 |
kmlussier |
remingtron: I was quite happy with pinesol_green's choice today. :) |
| 14:34 |
jeff |
@praise issues that can be resolved without a mid-day restart |
| 14:34 |
* pinesol_green |
You don't want to get mixed up with someone like issues that can be resolved without a mid-day restart. issues that can be resolved without a mid-day restart is a loner, Dottie. A rebel. |
| 14:34 |
kmlussier |
pinesol_green++ |
| 14:35 |
jeff |
yeah, not the kind of @praise I had in mind, pinesol_green |
| 14:45 |
kmlussier |
Sending along a heads up that our next search chat is scheduled to start in about 15 minutes. |
| 14:45 |
kmlussier |
If you're here for the chat and want to practice sending messages in IRC, feel free to say hello. |
| 14:49 |
yboston |
Also, feel free to click this link for a presentation I made explaining how to get started with IRC: http://goo.gl/w3zml2 |
| 14:51 |
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| 14:51 |
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pams joined #evergreen |
| 14:51 |
yboston |
welcome to anyone that is here on IRC for the first time |
| 14:52 |
yboston |
Click this link for a presentation I made explaining how to get started with IRC: http://goo.gl/w3zml2 |
| 14:52 |
yboston |
if this is you first time on IRC, pelase say hello by just typing your message |
| 14:55 |
pams |
yboston: hello, only my second time on IRC |
| 14:56 |
pams |
yboston: your tutorial was helpful |
| 14:56 |
yboston |
pams: not bad, you remember how to "reply" |
| 14:56 |
Onijay |
not my first time, but it has been awhile. |
| 14:56 |
yboston |
Onijay: welcome |
| 14:56 |
yboston |
the meeting will start in a few minutes |
| 14:56 |
Onijay |
yboston: ty |
| 14:57 |
yboston |
feel free to sask questiosn or just practice until we start |
| 14:57 |
yboston |
BTW, the meetign wil be led by Kathy. She will use a type of IRC assitant called meetbot. |
| 14:57 |
kmlussier |
Welcome pams and Onijay! |
| 14:58 |
yboston |
on occasion you will see the use of the pound sign to start messages. This is related to the use of meetbot, which helps with meetings, like creating meeting minutes |
| 14:58 |
pams |
kmlussier: Hi kathy |
| 15:00 |
kmlussier |
OK, it's 3:00, so I'm going to start things up. |
| 15:00 |
|
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| 15:00 |
kmlussier |
#startmeeting 2016-03-15 - Evergreen focus group discussion on search |
| 15:00 |
pinesol_green |
Meeting started Tue Mar 15 15:00:32 2016 US/Eastern. The chair is kmlussier. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. |
| 15:00 |
pinesol_green |
Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #startvote. |
| 15:00 |
pinesol_green |
The meeting name has been set to '2016_03_15___evergreen_focus_group_discussion_on_search' |
| 15:00 |
kmlussier |
Huh, just realized it's March 15. Beware the Ides of March! |
| 15:01 |
kmlussier |
#topic Introductions |
| 15:01 |
kmlussier |
Please introduce yourselves, as follows |
| 15:01 |
kmlussier |
#info kmlussier is Kathy Lussier, MassLNC |
| 15:01 |
sherbertbc |
sherbertbc is Sharon Herbert, Sitka/BC Libraries Cooperative |
| 15:01 |
ethomsen |
#info ethomsen is Elizabeth Thomsen, NOBLE |
| 15:01 |
rhamby |
#info rhamby is Rogan Hamby, Equinox Software |
| 15:01 |
pams |
#info pams Pamela Smith howe library, hanover, nh |
| 15:02 |
csharp |
#info csharp is Chris Sharp, GPLS (partially here) |
| 15:02 |
kmlussier |
While we wait for more people to come in, I'm posting a link to some ground rules I wrote up. |
| 15:03 |
kmlussier |
http://wiki.evergreen-ils.org/doku.php?id=scratchpad:search:focus_groups |
| 15:03 |
yboston |
#info yboston - Yamil Suárez - Berklee College of Music |
| 15:03 |
kmlussier |
bah! That's not going to work |
| 15:03 |
Onijay |
#info onijay is Joni Paxton, Community Library (lurking & learning) |
| 15:03 |
sherbertbc |
#info sherbertbc is Sharon Herbert, Sitka/BC Libraries Cooperative |
| 15:03 |
kmlussier |
http://wiki.evergreen-ils.org/doku.php?id=scratchpad:search:focus_groups |
| 15:04 |
kmlussier |
asically, this chat is an opportunity to talk about ideas for search. Although it's tempting, especially for technical folks, to get in the nitty gritty of how to make those ideas happen, we don't want to get bogged down in the details today. |
| 15:04 |
kmlussier |
Sorry, that should have said basically. |
| 15:04 |
kmlussier |
We really want to focus on end results today. |
| 15:04 |
|
ericar_ joined #evergreen |
| 15:04 |
|
brahmina joined #evergreen |
| 15:05 |
kmlussier |
Also, as is the case with any brainstorming, there are no stupid ideas. Feel free to share whatever ideas you have. And please don't be critical of others ideas. |
| 15:05 |
kmlussier |
However, I do encourage you to build upon each other's ideas. |
| 15:05 |
sherbertbc |
kmlussier: +1 on ground rules |
| 15:05 |
dbwells |
#info dbwells is Dan Wells, Hekman Library (Calvin College) |
| 15:05 |
kmlussier |
I'm going to get started on the discussion now. If you come in late, feel free to introduce yourselves in the middle of the discussion. |
| 15:06 |
kmlussier |
#topic Strengths of current search |
| 15:06 |
kmlussier |
I want to start by asking people to identify what they like about the current Evergreen search. |
| 15:06 |
kmlussier |
What are its strengths? |
| 15:06 |
kmlussier |
Is there anything that Evergreen search has that makes it unique (in a good way)? |
| 15:07 |
miker |
#info miker == Mike Rylander, Equinox |
| 15:08 |
kmlussier |
The reason I ask this question is because, if we make major changes to search, we want to make sure we don't lose the things that are already working well for us. |
| 15:09 |
kmlussier |
So think of the question in terms of things you don't want to lose. |
| 15:09 |
miker |
separate scope and depth search ranging |
| 15:09 |
yboston |
Like I have said before, I like that it can handle diacritics, and we can filter by format type |
| 15:09 |
kmlussier |
Excellent! Thanks miker! |
| 15:10 |
sherbertbc |
save to list, filter by availability |
| 15:10 |
miker |
configurable visibility for URIs (with an outstanding patch to improve that) |
| 15:10 |
kmlussier |
sherbertbc: Filtering by availability is a good. Thanks! I don't think it's come up in our past conversations. |
| 15:10 |
miker |
sherbertbc: and, more broadly, filter by status (which is how #available works under the covers) |
| 15:10 |
kmlussier |
miker: Are you speaking of Located URI's? |
| 15:11 |
miker |
kmlussier: I am :) |
| 15:11 |
csharp |
our users (staff and patron) appear to want the ability to have a non-keyword search that just sorts by format, location, and date (e.g. "give me the newest DVDs for my library") |
| 15:11 |
csharp |
oops - may not be the time for that |
| 15:11 |
kmlussier |
csharp: We'll get there in a bit. |
| 15:11 |
miker |
csharp: that's expressible today, but not with UI widgets. fwiw |
| 15:12 |
kmlussier |
Any other key features we need to ensure that we preserve in our search? |
| 15:12 |
kmlussier |
I know there are probably a lot of things we like, but it's not always easy to think of them because we just get used to having certain things. |
| 15:13 |
pams |
we like the call # numeric/browse shelf option |
| 15:14 |
kmlussier |
pams: Great! Thanks for mentioning it. |
| 15:14 |
ethomsen |
We like limit to copy location in Adv. Search |
| 15:15 |
Onijay |
We like to do ISBN searches |
| 15:15 |
kmlussier |
Yes, in addition to the copy location limiting, I would say there are a lot of power limiters from advanced search. |
| 15:15 |
yboston |
I like using search by barcode on occasion |
| 15:16 |
yboston |
also call number search |
| 15:16 |
kmlussier |
Onijay: When you say ISBN searches, is that from the Numeric search or is it that you like the ability to do it from a keyword search? |
| 15:16 |
Onijay |
both |
| 15:16 |
kmlussier |
Onijay: Gotcha. Thanks! |
| 15:17 |
kmlussier |
I'm going to move on to the next topic, but if anyone wants to add other strengths in the course of the conversation, please feel free to do so. |
| 15:17 |
kmlussier |
#topic Areas for improvement |
| 15:17 |
kmlussier |
Where are the areas where you would like to see improvement? |
| 15:17 |
ethomsen |
Speed and relevance |
| 15:18 |
pams |
spelling assist like Google, did you mean? |
| 15:19 |
kmlussier |
ethomsen: Thanks! I don't think there is much to say about speed, except make it faster, but could you talk a little more about where you would like to see improvements in relevance? |
| 15:19 |
kmlussier |
Basically, where do you see relevance coming up short? |
| 15:19 |
kmlussier |
pams: Yes, Did you Mean would be helpful. |
| 15:19 |
kmlussier |
Are there other areas where we think the catalog could provide more assistance to the users in helping them find what they are looking for? |
| 15:19 |
pams |
that's probably the biggest problem our patrons have with our catalog |
| 15:20 |
ethomsen |
Maybe it's just our configuration, but we find very short, older records consistently coming to the top of the results |
| 15:20 |
kmlussier |
ethomsen: Thanks! |
| 15:21 |
kmlussier |
pams: The biggest problem being that the search terms are entered incorrectly, and they need help getting to the right thing? |
| 15:21 |
ethomsen |
Our staff finds it difficult to understand (and therefore explain) why certain records are coming up on top -- can't see what's bumping certain records up so high |
| 15:21 |
* miker |
has thoughts on that ... but they're implementation-related and will hold off (just sticking a pin in it for later) |
| 15:22 |
pams |
kmlussier: right, a typo or incorrect spelling returns 0 results |
| 15:22 |
* kmlussier |
likes it when miker has thoughts, but thanks for holding off on details. :) |
| 15:23 |
miker |
(likewise with misspellings... for later :) ) |
| 15:23 |
ethomsen |
Or alternate spelling -- we want to maintain local synonym list with matched words and phrases |
| 15:23 |
ethomsen |
color=colour, rain forest=rainforest, 1920s=nineteen twenties, etc. |
| 15:23 |
ethomsen |
(Would like to show users which words have expanded their search and let them opt out of any word) |
| 15:24 |
kmlussier |
ethomsen: That's interesting. You mentioned not being able to see what's bumping certain records. It sounds like you're saying that it's not only that the returned records should be more relevant, but that there's a value to seeing why records are returned in a certain way? |
| 15:24 |
kmlussier |
Am I understanding that correctly? |
| 15:25 |
ethomsen |
At least for staff in troubleshooting mode (or mood) |
| 15:26 |
dbwells |
jobs |
| 15:26 |
dbwells |
sorry :) |
| 15:26 |
kmlussier |
ethomsen: If they were happy with the results, do you think seeing why they're returned in a certain way would be as important? |
| 15:27 |
kmlussier |
OK, so I'm seeing speed, relevance improvements, Did You Mean, a synonym list/thesaurus. |
| 15:27 |
pams |
apostrophes also pose a problem |
| 15:27 |
ethomsen |
It's not really library staff, it's our staff (consortium) trying to understand and to change configs or fix records |
| 15:27 |
kmlussier |
ethomsen: OK, gotcha. Thanks! |
| 15:27 |
sherbertbc |
filtering by format on the search results page could be more obvious, now buried in faceting & labelled as 'genre" not intuitive |
| 15:27 |
ethomsen |
Sometimes overlaying records with better ones demotes them in search results! |
| 15:27 |
kmlussier |
sherbertbc: Are you saying you would like a format facet? |
| 15:28 |
miker |
sherbertbc: or, do you want a "controlled" set for filtering on genre/format? |
| 15:28 |
kmlussier |
ethomsen: I'm going to expand upon that a bit and say that record quality should matter in relevance? |
| 15:28 |
ethomsen |
We want both physical format and genre facets |
| 15:28 |
kmlussier |
sherbertbc: Oh, I think I misunderstood what you were saying. I understand now. |
| 15:29 |
sherbertbc |
more than just re-labelling genre to facet. I think bringing "Filter results by" to the top of sidebar would help |
| 15:29 |
sherbertbc |
miker: not sure if ^^ is answering your question though |
| 15:30 |
ethomsen |
kmlussier: Not sure if that true, just think short records getting too much attention! To me, if a short and long record both have the word Puffins in the title and subject heading, they should rank the same. |
| 15:30 |
miker |
sherbertbc: to put it in "evergreen features" terms, akin to, say, the language or format filter on the advanced search page? |
| 15:30 |
kmlussier |
sherbertbc: It sounds like you're saying you would like to see usability improvements to limiting on the search results screen. |
| 15:30 |
sherbertbc |
kmlussier: +1 |
| 15:30 |
sherbertbc |
yes, the functionality is there, it just isn't very evident to users re: terminology and placement |
| 15:30 |
kmlussier |
I have more to say on that, but will hold back for now. :) |
| 15:31 |
kmlussier |
ethomsen: Thanks |
| 15:31 |
ethomsen |
We definitely want more facets so a user can filter results rather than re-executing search |
| 15:31 |
kmlussier |
I want to go back to something ethomsen said earlier: "Would like to show users which words have expanded their search and let them opt out of any word" |
| 15:32 |
kmlussier |
In this case, it sounds like you're talking about when the system searches for stemmed terms - is that right? |
| 15:32 |
kmlussier |
pams: Also, I would like to hear more from you on where you see problems with apostrophes. |
| 15:33 |
pams |
we have a lot of problems where an author or title isn't searchable without the apostrophe |
| 15:33 |
ethomsen |
Not necessarily stemming, but any future situation where the system is using synonym lists or other tools to be able to change search |
| 15:34 |
kmlussier |
pams: OK, I'll not it down. I know we have some issues with apostrophes too, but I also have some info I need to add to documentation that may be able to help you currently. |
| 15:35 |
miker |
pams: it sounds like more indexing normalizers would be helpful to you ("remove apos", etc) |
| 15:35 |
miker |
pams: does that sound correct? |
| 15:36 |
kmlussier |
The possible feature ethomsen mentioned reminded me of comments made in a previous chat to improve fuzziness. I think the crux of the discussion was that we wanted Evergreen to be smarter with its fuzziness. |
| 15:36 |
kmlussier |
How do you all find the current use of stemming in Evergreen search? |
| 15:37 |
ethomsen |
We have it turned off. |
| 15:37 |
jeff |
death to stemming! |
| 15:37 |
pams |
kmlussier: yes that is correct |
| 15:37 |
yboston |
BTW, I sometimes get errors searching terms that include non-alphanumeric characters like "!@#$%^& |
| 15:37 |
jeff |
er, what i meant to say was: i'm ambivalent about stemming! |
| 15:37 |
miker |
jeff: I read that as "knobs for adjusting stemming!" ;) |
| 15:38 |
kmlussier |
jeff: Yes, that sounded ambivalent. |
| 15:38 |
kmlussier |
I hear smarter fuzziness, whether it's stemming or another way to search word variations. :) |
| 15:39 |
kmlussier |
Any other areas of improvements we want to bring up? Or features we see in other search systems that we would love to see in Evergreen? |
| 15:39 |
ethomsen |
We like controlled fuzziness -- lists we maintain and can adjust |
| 15:39 |
kmlussier |
Or maybe new and innovative things that nobody else has done yet? |
| 15:39 |
miker |
ethomsen: I'll paste a link of interest after the meeting if you can stick around for a minute |
| 15:40 |
ethomsen |
Thanks! |
| 15:40 |
jeff |
miker: I'm still trying to come up with a good analogue or metaphor for tuning search knbos. the best i've come up with is this: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004NCEL4M/ |
| 15:40 |
miker |
kmlussier: I'd like to see search augmented with external, curated disambiguation information |
| 15:41 |
miker |
jeff: heh... I was expecting a sound board with hundreds of knobs ;) |
| 15:41 |
ethomsen |
miker: authority records, linked data...? |
| 15:42 |
jeff |
"you searched for steven king, who has a few children's books. you might have actually wanted to search for stephen king, a prolific author well known for ..." |
| 15:42 |
miker |
ethomsen: and other sources, like wikidata related/broader/narrower lists |
| 15:42 |
kmlussier |
miker: I like the sounds of this. Can you tell us a bit about what the end user would see? |
| 15:42 |
kmlussier |
Or maybe jeff helped to answer my question. |
| 15:42 |
miker |
that's a use case, yep |
| 15:43 |
miker |
more that "did you mean" ... "other things that might be related" |
| 15:44 |
ethomsen |
miker: me, too. So you search Fenway Park and it knows your search is probably related to Boston, Boston Red Sox, baseball, baseball parks... |
| 15:44 |
miker |
ethomsen: right, like that |
| 15:45 |
kmlussier |
OK, I'm going to wrap up this topic now to move on to a bit more detail on relevance. But I think this one ended on a high note. |
| 15:45 |
ethomsen |
I love Wikipedia's disambiguation pages, so much better for public than authority displays! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_%28disambiguation%29 |
| 15:45 |
kmlussier |
#topic Defining relevance |
| 15:45 |
miker |
kmlussier: another enhancement, improve metarecord grouping (in many ways, manual and otherwise), and make them first-class, useful things |
| 15:46 |
kmlussier |
I really hated interrupting the disambiguation discussion for this. |
| 15:46 |
ethomsen |
miker: YES! |
| 15:46 |
kmlussier |
miker: OK, we'll digress for a second. Tell me about the first-class, useful things we'll be turning the into. |
| 15:48 |
miker |
:) sorry ... so, with better grouping mechanisms (more tunable automated grouping, possible to have multiple MRs per record, cataloger-adjustable MR inclusion) I think some classes of searches would benefit from having MRs be the main result list |
| 15:48 |
miker |
and, that result list could (should, IMO) surface information about the constituent records right up front |
| 15:48 |
miker |
have the "work" level info, then "manifestation" info below that for each constituent |
| 15:49 |
miker |
it would be a larger result page, but get the user to the thing they wanted faster ... |
| 15:49 |
kmlussier |
And is this somewhat related to the code4lib talk you saw? Because I need a picture to help me with see this. |
| 15:49 |
miker |
not applicable to all search needs, certainly |
| 15:50 |
miker |
kmlussier: it is. I haven't had a chance to find the timecode for the start of the talk yet, though |
| 15:50 |
kmlussier |
OK, thanks |
| 15:50 |
miker |
but, the videos for thursday are up now |
| 15:50 |
ethomsen |
How about being able to be looking at a single record and being able to jump from there to other formats/editions, like in Amazon? |
| 15:50 |
kmlussier |
Now I want to move on to relevance. |
| 15:50 |
miker |
ethomsen: YES! |
| 15:50 |
miker |
:) |
| 15:50 |
miker |
kmlussier: sorry for derailing |
| 15:50 |
kmlussier |
No, that's okay, That's what this discussion is for. :) |
| 15:51 |
kmlussier |
I often hear people say that relevance needs to be improved. But relevance for one person may be not-so-relevant for another. I think we really need to define what relevance means for us. |
| 15:52 |
kmlussier |
My question is, what factors should be used to identify a record as being highly relevant in a search? |
| 15:52 |
kmlussier |
We heard a bit of this above. We heard that we don't want them to be older and shorter records. And I think ethomsen mentioned words appearing in specific fields. |
| 15:52 |
kmlussier |
What else should contribute to relevance? |
| 15:53 |
ethomsen |
Obvious aboutness -- searched terms appearing near each other in author, subject, title fields coming up first |
| 15:53 |
ethomsen |
We have great hopes for activity metric, too. |
| 15:54 |
kmlussier |
I'm hearing three things here: Words in specific fields, word proximity, and popularity. |
| 15:54 |
kmlussier |
Other than the shorter / older records, are there other places where we consistently see Evergreen not returning relevance records? |
| 15:55 |
ethomsen |
I would have added more recent titles should tend to appear higher, but I think activity metric will tend to have that effect anyway |
| 15:56 |
kmlussier |
Well, I think recency should be identified anyway. Just to make sure it's not overlooked. |
| 15:57 |
kmlussier |
I'm going to leave this question out for about 30 seconds longer before I move on to the final question. |
| 15:57 |
kmlussier |
#topic Top-priority improvements |
| 15:58 |
kmlussier |
If you had just two improvements you could make to Evergreen search, what would they be? |
| 15:58 |
ethomsen |
We love summary notes and contents notes, but they have so many words in them they often overwhelm the search results with titles of low relevance. I'd like to be able to be able to turn "Search within contents and summary notes?" on or off. |
| 15:59 |
kmlussier |
ethomsen: Thanks for adding that idea. That particular idea hasn't been raised yet, but it correlates with something I was thinking recently. |
| 15:59 |
ethomsen |
Are we allowed to say speed and relevance? |
| 15:59 |
kmlussier |
ethomsen: Yes, if those are the two highest priorities. |
| 15:59 |
ethomsen |
Speed and relevance |
| 16:00 |
kmlussier |
For the first chat, I only let people pick one. Most people picked speed, so JBoyer suggested I expand to two improvements. |
| 16:00 |
kmlussier |
Anyone else have a top 2? I know there were more people sharing ideas earlier. :) |
| 16:01 |
pams |
I would say relevance & spelling |
| 16:01 |
kmlussier |
Thanks pams! |
| 16:02 |
kmlussier |
We're pass the two minute mark, so I'm going to wrap up. But if anyone else wants to send me there two, just let me know. I'll add it to my notes even if it doesn't make the official logs. |
| 16:02 |
kmlussier |
#endmeeting |
| 16:02 |
pinesol_green |
Meeting ended Tue Mar 15 16:02:41 2016 US/Eastern. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4) |
| 16:02 |
pinesol_green |
Minutes: http://evergreen-ils.org/meetings/evergreen/2016/evergreen.2016-03-15-15.00.html |
| 16:02 |
pinesol_green |
Minutes (text): http://evergreen-ils.org/meetings/evergreen/2016/evergreen.2016-03-15-15.00.txt |
| 16:02 |
pinesol_green |
Log: http://evergreen-ils.org/meetings/evergreen/2016/evergreen.2016-03-15-15.00.log.html |
| 16:03 |
miker |
kmlussier++ # another great search chat, thanks for wrangling these! |
| 16:03 |
jeff |
kmlussier++ |
| 16:03 |
kmlussier |
Thanks everyone for sharing your thoughts today! After tomorrow's chat, I'm going to pull together the logs into some form of coherent notes and will share them out to the rest of the community. |
| 16:03 |
pams |
thanks for doing offering the opportunity |
| 16:03 |
dbwells |
kmlussier: I am not sure how to best explain it, but I think I would put "understandable" pretty high on my list. If I can tell why the system is doing something, I can try to adjust my behavior to suit. Otherwise, I am just shooting in the dark sometimes. |
| 16:04 |
miker |
ethomsen: here's the link I mentioned earlier: http://www.postgresql.org/docs/9.1/static/textsearch-dictionaries.html |
| 16:05 |
gmcharlt |
demo.evergreencatalog.com is now running 2.10-rc with webstaff enabled |
| 16:05 |
kmlussier |
gmcharlt++ |
| 16:06 |
kmlussier |
pams: I have some notes on hyphenation that I can share with you. I just need to find the link. |
| 16:06 |
miker |
tl;dr: there are things that can be done at the DB level to implement many of the things you talked about re synonyms and thesauri, though to leverage the full power they'd require some indexing work as well, for thesaurus dictionaries in particular (I think ... testing needed) |
| 16:07 |
pams |
kmlussier: thank you, I'd appreciate that |
| 16:07 |
miker |
but synonym dictionaries should be doable today (sans staff UI) |
| 16:07 |
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| 16:07 |
kmlussier |
pams: Here it is http://masslnc.org/node/3163 |
| 16:08 |
ethomsen |
miker: Thanks! |
| 16:10 |
pams |
kmlussier: thank you |
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