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IRC log for #evergreen, 2015-01-09

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All times shown according to the server's local time.

Time Nick Message
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08:31 kmlussier Happy Friday #evergreen!
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09:11 * Dyrcona switches hot spots. Wifi on my laptop is all messed up.
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09:24 jeff kmlussier: happy Friday!
09:38 bshum @hates
09:38 pinesol_green bshum hates metarecord holds; acquisitions; questions about acquisitions; z39.50; acq; notices; action triggers; marc_export; hold pull lists; drupal; holds; RDA; edi; parts holds; kpac; SIP; parts; marc; RAID; Launchpad; edi troubleshooting; reports; serials; apostrophes in search; server power failures; zimbra; office printer; weird barcodes; PO JEDI; B&T; using the phone; horizontal summary (1 more message)
09:38 bshum @more
09:38 pinesol_green bshum: display; vertical summary display; backporting; A/T; custom reporter stuff; dojo; and snow
09:38 bshum Oh good it's there already.
09:38 kmlussier @loves bshum
09:39 pinesol_green bshum loves Evergreen; chocolate chip cookies; git; tpac; yaous; rain; piwik; lunch; Fridays; cake; pizza; Star Trek; pgadmin; donuts; autoupdate; quassel; kvm; roulette; and PostgreSQL magic
09:39 bshum snow--
09:39 kmlussier bshum: you need more love and less hate in your life. ;)
09:39 bshum @love snow days
09:39 pinesol_green bshum: The operation succeeded.  bshum loves snow days.
09:40 kmlussier @loves
09:40 pinesol_green kmlussier loves parts; YAOUS; Fridays; clam chowder; coffee; new fanged email thing; quassel; magic eightball; trivia; Evergreeners; BBQ; spell check; mobile catalog; new edit links in the catalog; vim; and pizza
09:40 kmlussier @hates
09:40 pinesol_green kmlussier hates git; Launchpad search; Internet Explorer; snow; scheduling meetings; and Starbucks
09:41 jeff i get a chuckle out of "new fanged"
09:41 kmlussier @hate negative balances
09:41 pinesol_green kmlussier: The operation succeeded.  kmlussier hates negative balances.
09:41 jeff seems to imply that the email has grown teeth or something.
09:41 kmlussier I've received email with teeth.
09:42 Dyrcona heh
09:44 jeff Content-Type: teeth/fangs
09:44 kmlussier I was trying to remember the context under which I had added that love. Apparently, it came from RoganH http://irc.evergreen-ils.org/​evergreen/2014-02-03#i_65979
09:49 bshum @dontcare server power failures
09:49 pinesol_green bshum: The operation succeeded.  bshum no longer hates server power failures.
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09:54 bshum @sarcasticlove parts
09:54 pinesol_green bshum: But bshum already hates parts!
09:57 kmlussier bshum: You don't hate server power failures?
09:58 bshum Not today anyways.
09:58 remingtron joined #evergreen
10:32 csharp wow - so postgres replication is not at all scary to setup - nowhere near as complicated as slony
10:32 csharp I'm running it in some test VMs - so far so good
10:33 kmlussier csharp: Is that something you're thinking of doing in production?
10:33 bshum csharp: It is pretty awesome.
10:33 kmlussier I know it's something that OmniTI recommended in their report.
10:36 csharp kmlussier: yes, beginning next weekend
10:37 csharp slony is such a PITA, I'm happy to see a straightforward setup
10:37 csharp *and* there's automatic failover, which is not possible with slony
10:38 csharp still learning, but it's nice to start the day with a success ;-)
10:38 bshum It was always my understanding that Slony's big deal was that it allowed you to pick and choose which bits to replicate?
10:38 bshum vs. innate replication which seems to just do the whole thing
10:38 csharp yes, that's the *remaining* advantage of slony
10:38 csharp that mattered before we had three identical servers with lots of disk space
10:39 bshum @love new hardware
10:39 pinesol_green bshum: The operation succeeded.  bshum loves new hardware.
10:39 bshum @love new toys
10:39 pinesol_green bshum: The operation succeeded.  bshum loves new toys.
10:39 kmlussier csharp: Keep us posted on how things go.
10:39 berick hm, just occured to me we need to add bzr to the packager prereqs
10:39 bshum Hmm
10:40 kmlussier bshum: I'm happy to see you're following up on my advice from earlier. :)
10:40 eeevil csharp: that, and the fact that long-running queries with either be killed or stall replication (and risk filling disk with WAL)
10:40 bshum berick: For translation sync right?
10:40 eeevil where "that" is "the remaining advantage of slony"
10:40 berick bshum: yah
10:42 csharp eeevil: oh - good to know
10:42 * csharp wonders how often that will be an issue
10:44 csharp eeevil: on the ESI-administered locations, are you using slony or built-in?
10:44 eeevil csharp: killing queries? any long running report is at risk
10:45 eeevil and, both, for different purposes
10:45 csharp oh - hmm
10:45 eeevil there are good reasons (and use cases) for both
10:45 csharp we regularly have reports that run 2+ hours, even on the new hardwar
10:45 csharp e
10:46 eeevil the timeout is configurable, and probably infinite by default
10:46 eeevil but a long running query also keeps the master from doing some cleanup
10:47 eeevil or did, at least ... not sure if that is fixed in a release yet or now
10:47 dbs pretty sure those early issues were fixed relatively early too
10:47 * csharp is doing more rtfm work
10:48 eeevil dbs: I hope so :)
10:49 eeevil there were a spate of bad replication-related data-loss bugs, IIRC, about 9-12 months ago, too ... those were scarier, but fixed relatively rapidly
10:53 dbs yep
10:54 csharp dbs: so you're running native PG replication?
10:55 kmlussier @marc 024
10:55 pinesol_green kmlussier: A standard number or code published on an item which cannot be accommodated in another field (e.g., field 020 (International Standard Book Number), 022 (International Standard Serial Number) , and 027 (Standard Technical Report Number)). The type of standard number or code is identified in the first indicator position or in subfield $2 (Source of number or code). (Repeatable) (1 more message)
10:55 csharp marc--
10:56 kmlussier @karma marc
10:56 pinesol_green kmlussier: Karma for "marc" has been increased 0 times and decreased 26 times for a total karma of -26.
11:01 jboyer-isl I missed all of the Postgres replication talk, but what version of Pg are you running csharp?
11:01 csharp jboyer-isl: 9.3
11:02 csharp reading up on cascading replication (asynchronous only) vs. synchronous replication
11:04 jboyer-isl That's probably for the best. We're on 9.1 and after having one of our 2 replicants fall off the end for a second time I'm going back to Slony until at least 9.3 or 9.4. :/ (in 9.1 you had to guess how many WAL segments your replicants might lag; I think in 9.3 or .4 the master won't through away files that slaves still need)
11:04 berick bshum: dbwells: FYI started on http://wiki.evergreen-ils.org/doku.php​?id=dev:release_process:evergreen:2.8
11:05 csharp jboyer-isl: wow - well that's the kind of real-world-usage information I'm after
11:06 bshum berick++ # sweet
11:06 jboyer-isl There is a lot of traffic along the link that this replicant was using, but even with 6000+ WAL segments being kept it didn't make it 2 weeks. Identical hardware that sits on the same switch is still keeping up with a much faster master.
11:06 * berick is done editing for now
11:09 csharp jboyer-isl: interesting
11:09 dbs csharp: yes, we were when we were hosted by UoGuelph, for years. always asynchronous, and primarily for disaster recovery and offline reads.
11:09 dbs You really don't want to do synchronous.
11:09 csharp dbs: ok - good to know
11:10 csharp our ideal setup would be cascading
11:10 csharp 1 to 2 to 3
11:10 * dbs likes marc 024 for URIs
11:11 jboyer-isl csharp, I didn't think you could do that. If there's a recovery.conf in place I didn't think the server would start any wal_senders. Is that something new in 9.2 or .3?
11:12 dbs hey berick, here's a fun old one: python oils.utils is hardcoded to speak http, so you can't talk to an https-only server
11:12 dbs 9.2 IIRC is where cascading started to be introduced
11:12 jboyer-isl Ah, I see. Never mind then, I'm just living in the past.
11:13 csharp jboyer-isl: http://www.postgresql.org/docs/current/intera​ctive/warm-standby.html#CASCADING-REPLICATION
11:13 * csharp is actually reading the 9.3 version of that page
11:13 berick dbs: ah, osrf/gateway.py.  yeah, that's dumb
11:14 dbs bingo :)
11:14 bshum berick: Cool, I'm poking a bit to add in some bits from the google doc
11:15 berick bshum++
11:16 jboyer-isl csharp, I was going to say, careful reading current; you might make yourself sad when $NEW_HOTNESS isn't actually available on your version. :D (happened to me recently. :/ )
11:16 csharp heh
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11:26 * Stompro slowly eats popcorn as postgres replication discussion goes on.  Better than the hobbit movies.
11:29 kmlussier Stompro: You and I have different ideas of what entertainment is. :)
11:29 kmlussier @weather 02771
11:29 pinesol_green kmlussier: The current temperature in Rumford, East Providence, Rhode Island is 24.6°F (11:25 AM EST on January 09, 2015). Conditions: Light Snow. Humidity: 91%. Dew Point: 23.0°F. Windchill: 17.6°F. Pressure: 29.99 in 1016 hPa (Steady).
11:30 * kmlussier enjoys watching the snow lightly fall from her front window. Very pretty.
11:31 Stompro @weather 58102
11:31 pinesol_green Stompro: The current temperature in Fargo, North Dakota is -0.4°F (9:53 AM CST on January 09, 2015). Conditions: Clear. Humidity: 63%. Dew Point: -9.4°F. Windchill: -18.4°F. Pressure: 30.42 in 1030 hPa (Rising).  Wind Chill Advisory in effect until noon CST today...
11:31 csharp weather 30033
11:31 csharp @weather 30033
11:31 pinesol_green csharp: The current temperature in Leafmore, Decatur, Georgia is 33.1°F (11:31 AM EST on January 09, 2015). Conditions: Clear. Humidity: 43%. Dew Point: 12.2°F. Windchill: 33.8°F. Pressure: 30.41 in 1030 hPa (Rising).
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11:38 Dyrcona ooh load is 100.
11:43 csharp yowza
11:44 mrpeters @weather 46060
11:45 mrpeters so cold it wont even tell you :)
11:45 pinesol_green mrpeters: The current temperature in Downtown Noblesville, Noblesville, Indiana is 12.7°F (11:45 AM EST on January 09, 2015). Conditions: Scattered Clouds. Humidity: 38%. Dew Point: -7.6°F. Windchill: 1.4°F. Pressure: 30.32 in 1027 hPa (Rising).  Wind Chill Advisory in effect until 7 am EST Saturday...
11:45 Dyrcona load is back down to 10 or so, but ejabberd is using 200% cpu.
11:46 bshum Man, you guys cannot seem to catch a break :(
11:46 Dyrcona And, giving me this: I(<0.9788.0>:ejabberd_listener:293) : (#Port<0.2785>) Failed TCP accept: emfile
11:46 mrpeters oh man this winter has been kind
11:46 Dyrcona Which means it can't open new files.
11:46 mrpeters we have only had 2 snows, and this is the first bitter cold
11:47 mrpeters this time last year we were close to breaking snowfall records, so im not complaining too much
11:48 Dyrcona mrpeters: similar here.
11:48 Dyrcona though maybe not record snow fall last year, but we had over a week of bitter cold right around new year last year.
11:49 mrpeters im staying on the positive side, we're only about 6 weeks from 50's being the norm
11:50 mrpeters we usually start having warm days and tornadoes by the time march madness is wrapping up
11:50 Dyrcona I don't get whey ejabberd says it can't open files.
11:50 Dyrcona We only have 61662 open file handles.
11:50 Dyrcona On the whole system.
11:51 Dyrcona ejabberd only has 601 open.
11:51 Dyrcona opensrf has 52587
11:51 Dyrcona And the number of open files is dropping.
11:52 Dyrcona We didn't hit 200 cstore drones this time, either.
12:04 Dyrcona Don't suppose I could just restart ejabberd and no one would notice. ;)
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12:11 jboyer-isl Dyrcona, If it really did hit the max file limit something would probably have died and caused potentially tons of file handles to close. Have you looked in that machine's syslog for 'Too many open files' ?
12:11 jboyer-isl The best part about hitting that limit is that you never know who's going to win the shutdown lottery!
12:25 Dyrcona jboyer-isl: No "Too many open files" messages in syslog and kern.log is dated yesterday sometime.
12:26 jboyer-isl I suppose that would have been too easy. :/
12:27 Dyrcona Most of syslog are messages from postfix that ought to just be in mail.log, but I'm not gonna fix that right now.
12:34 Dyrcona Weird: at 11:35:26 I have ejabberd accepted a connection.
12:38 Dyrcona After that all ejabberd log messages are the emfile error.
12:38 Dyrcona Despite ejabberd not accepting new connections things seem to be working for now.
12:43 juneo joined #evergreen
12:43 Dyrcona I think I should really learn more about erlang.
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12:48 Dyrcona The typical answer of increasing ulimit can't be correct, since ulimit -n for ejabberd is 65535 and ejabberd only has 624 files open.
12:50 Dyrcona Looks like we changed it across the board, not just on a user by user basis.
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13:28 eeevil Dyrcona: is pam respecting configured limits for both login and su? the latter is needed when startup scripts su to the ejabberd user, I believe (see: http://metajack.im/2008/09/23/file-descripto​rs-are-yummy-or-common-pitfalls-of-ejabberd/ )
13:31 Dyrcona eeevil: Thanks. I skipped that one, because I saw something about ERL_MAX_PORTS.
13:32 Dyrcona eeevil: After looking at pam, login does respect limits, but su doesn't, and that could be our problem since the startup script does su when starting ejabberd.
13:32 Dyrcona eeevil++
13:32 Dyrcona I used to like pam, but now I don't. :)
13:33 eeevil heh
13:39 Dyrcona What I'm not finding is what happens if the limits for all uses is set to 65535 and the line is commented out in su. Will pam use some built-in limit?
13:42 jeff even if i thought i knew the answer, i'd test by doing something like echoing the output of uname -a into a file from within an init script that uses su
13:42 jeff (from a command run with su from an init script, that is)
13:48 Dyrcona Here's a little something from the Debian wiki: Note that pam_limits is not used in /etc/pam.d/common-session and /etc/pam.d/common-session-noninteractive, so it won't be active for daemons
13:51 Dyrcona Dunno if that applies here for certain, since the init script does use su.
13:51 Dyrcona Dunno if setting in either of those files would do anything.
13:54 * dbs wonders if we have a version of reporter.super_simple_record with non-normalized author / title / etc yet
13:55 * Dyrcona doesn't.
13:56 * dbs should probably just create a view based on a MODS-ified version of a record for adhoc query/report purposes
13:56 csharp dbs: we don't, that I know of.  our libraries want that, though
13:56 csharp it would be very welcome
13:56 * dbs hatesesss the normalization :)
13:56 dbs (I understand why it's there, but yeah, need an alternative)
13:57 berick *cough* metabib display fields
13:57 dbs okay. will see what I can put together for the humans
13:57 csharp it's been a pet peeve - nothing to rise to the top of anyone's wish list
13:57 dbs yet
13:57 dbs yeah
13:58 Dyrcona Now, after having all this conversation about pam and limits, I swear that I did see ejabberd have more than 1024 files open earlier today.
13:58 Dyrcona However, using tmux, I don't have any console scroll back.
14:00 kmlussier dbs: We would love to see non-normalized fields.
14:01 finnx joined #evergreen
14:02 kmlussier It's why I was so excited for display fields, but I guess that's not ready yet.
14:06 Dyrcona su doesn't appear to be the problem.
14:06 Dyrcona Without or without pam_limits.so enabled, I get the right limit with just su.
14:13 bshum Does anyone use clark-kent.pl with concurrency other than 1?  I'm trying to remember how to have clark handle multiple report running at once, but it's been too many years since I last tried it out.
14:16 berick bshum: pretty sure changing the concurrency value is all you have to do
14:20 bshum Okay, so something like... "clark-kent.pl --concurrency=3 --daemon" should keep around up to 3 reports at once
14:20 * bshum tries it and sees what explodes
14:21 dbs bshum: we've been doing concurrency 2 for years
14:22 csharp PINES uses '-c 12' nowadays
14:27 * jeff idly wonders if anyone has run a report in the last year other than a few legacy ones he's run by hand
14:32 Tracy joined #evergreen
14:36 Tracy_ joined #evergreen
14:37 Tracy_ Hello.  I don't have much experience with chat rooms, but am very pleased to be here and attending this MARC training.
14:38 dbs Welcome Tracy_
14:38 jeff Tracy_: greetings!
14:39 jeff Tracy_: are you in a training session where someone mentioned this channel?
14:40 Tracy Yes. I'm from the Lake County Library and am a new hire for Technical Services Assistant.
14:42 jeff congratulations!
14:43 Tracy_ I don't have any questions for the homework this week.  But am logging in for the first time to get acquainted with the chat room and to fulfill my assignment of logging in at least once per week!
14:44 Tracy_ Thank you, Jeff.
14:47 Tracy_ Looking forward to learning much and getting acquainted with everyone.  Have a good weekend!
14:48 bshum Tracy_: Welcome aboard!  In case it interests you, there's a cataloger discussion mailing list that some Evergreeners use
14:48 Tracy_ Yes, please.  That would be helpful.
14:48 bshum Occasionally some of them are in IRC here too, but you may find more interesting topics discussed on those email threads
14:48 bshum http://list.evergreen-ils.org/cgi-bin/​mailman/listinfo/evergreen-catalogers
14:50 Tracy_ Got it.  Thanks!
15:07 kmlussier I don't know anything about the MARC class, but I love the instructor who asked her students to get acquainted with #evergreen.
15:07 Sally joined #evergreen
15:09 bshum It does give you that warm fuzzy feeling inside doesn't it?
15:09 * dbs suspects that the display_field approach may benefit significantly from postgresql 9.3 and LATERAL
15:10 kmlussier #evergreen often gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside.
15:11 bshum dbs: Does that mean that we should make a hard requirement to use PG 9.3 for 2.8+ ?  (I already feel like PG 9.3 should have been the base version for 2.7, but anyways....)
15:11 dbs otherwise, pre-9.3 approach seems likely to be another materialized table populated by triggers. could be just my little brain not dealing well with attempts to harness biblio.extract_metabib_field_entry(bibid)  for the powers of good
15:12 dbs bshum: 9.1 end of life is September 2016
15:13 bshum Oh, that'll line up nicely with 3.0 then ;)
15:13 dbs (per http://www.postgresql.org/support/versioning/) - 9.3 minimum + dropping script-based circ + newfangled websocketry all sounds like a good thing to get in place for an upcoming release
15:13 dbs 2.10? :)
15:14 bshum Nooooooo
15:14 bshum :)
15:15 bshum I imagine that 3.0 would be a good marketing concept for the day we can officially cut the cord between the XUL and web based staff clients.
15:15 * bshum would buy that t-shirt
15:16 * dbs would buy that t-shirt, wear it, then give a lightning talk where he rips it off Hulk Hogan-style to reveal a "XUL FOREVER" shirt underneath.
15:16 dbs Then rip that one off to reveal "I kid, I kid" under that
15:16 bshum dbs++
15:16 bshum Haha
15:18 * bshum would go to that lightning talk :)
15:19 mtate dbs++
15:24 kmlussier dbs++
15:24 kmlussier Are display fields doable for 2.8?
15:32 dbs kmlussier: some elements of them would be. not sure what the whole desired scope is
15:33 kmlussier dbs: Nor do I.
15:48 eeevil dbs / kmlussier: re display fields, the full scope would be TPAC + replace MVR + reporting (and likely more), so probably not all for 2.8, but I think TPAC and reporting might be
15:50 eeevil dbs: and, IIRC, I think display fields could (is planned to?) reuse browse_entry, since the data in there is focused on patron display normalization already, to avoid another copy of /all/ the data
15:50 eeevil but, going from memory on that second part
15:51 kmlussier eeevil: What would display fields do for TPAC? I think I've asked this question before, but I don't remember the answer now.
15:52 jeff for one thing, they could eliminate the need for tpac to parse the MARCXML blob for every item on every search result page.
15:53 berick kmlussier: remove all the xpath cruft from the templates and just display pre-cacluated values from the DB for record fields
15:53 kmlussier berick: Gotcha! Thanks
15:53 jeff (unless you wanted to override without re-ingest, in which case the marcxml would still be available to you)
15:53 berick what jeff said, in an ideal world, but completetly getting rid of all xpath/parsing would be a significant job, i think
15:53 berick jeff: that, too
15:58 kmlussier I wish I understood reports better.
15:58 bshum kmlussier: Be careful what you wish for.
15:59 kmlussier When you use the "in list" operator on a filter, why is it that you sometimes are presented with a list of defined values when you create the report, but other times you have to enter the text?
16:01 bshum Maybe it's a goof in the fieldmapper?
16:01 bshum And it doesn't know where to get the list from
16:02 kmlussier For example, I can get a nice list of org unit IDS to choose from or a list of fund codes to choose from. But if I want to filter by PO state, I need to manually enter the text.
16:02 Stompro Should there be a post on evergreen-ils.org and something to the list serves about EG 2.7.2, 2.6.5 and Opensrf 2.4.0?  The last release post is for 2.7.1, 2.6.4 and 2.5.8.  I've been out for a month and I'm just trying to caught up.
16:03 jeff back when we used to run reports that way (okay, I'll stop), I seem to recall two common causes: a lack of proper linkage in the fieldmapper, or selecting the "wrong" element in the report template editor.
16:03 bshum Stompro: In theory, we should probably blog more.  In practice, that isn't always the case.
16:04 berick eeevil: IIRC, there was talk of using browse_entry for display fields, but no action.
16:04 berick all talk, no walk
16:04 kmlussier jeff: OK, so maybe I need to find the "right" element.
16:05 bshum kmlussier: What is PO State related to?  (is that an actual state, like CT?)
16:05 berick kmlussier: PO states do not come from a list maintained in the DB.
16:05 eeevil sorry, looked away ... /me reads up
16:05 kmlussier I'm copying a report from a reports guru where the same thing happens, so I suspect the cause is the former not the latter.
16:05 jeff ah, then there'd you go. berick has the true reason in this case.
16:05 julialima left #evergreen
16:06 kmlussier berick: Really? I always assumed there was because there was a limited number of states that could be used.
16:06 kmlussier berick: And the same is true for lineitem states?
16:06 kmlussier bshum: State as in pending, on order, complete, etc.
16:06 bshum Oh state, got it now...
16:06 bshum :)
16:07 berick kmlussier: same for lineitems.
16:07 kmlussier OK, then. I won't worry about it and move on. At least I now know the answer to a question that has been bugging me for a while. :)
16:08 kmlussier Actually, I lied about moving on.
16:08 berick kmlussier++
16:08 kmlussier berick: So that would explain why, when you do an acquisitions search, you can't select a state from a nice dropdown box? That's something that's been on our wishlist for a while.
16:09 berick kmlussier: yep
16:09 berick should be possible to put a custom state-picker widget into the search form, though
16:10 kmlussier berick: Possible as in hours and hours of development or possible as in an easy tweak?
16:10 berick hm, somewhere in the middle
16:10 kmlussier berick: Good to know for the next time it comes up. Thanks!
16:20 bshum Stompro++ # proactive :D
16:22 kmlussier Stompro++
16:24 jboyer-isl kmlussier, depends on if the field is a primary key or not.
16:24 jboyer-isl HEY look who can't scroll.
16:26 kmlussier :)
16:27 dbs Fruits of labor: http://goo.gl/CEj1F7 (no non-normalized publisher info yet, config.metabib_field is likely to grow if we really want to centralize this stuff)
16:27 dbs and then we'll get to try and deal with RDA :)
16:28 dbs Next stop, BIBFRAME
16:30 kmlussier dbs++
17:05 pinesol_green Incoming from qatests: Test Failure - http://testing.evergreen-ils.org/~live/test.html <http://testing.evergreen-ils.org/~live/test.html>
17:12 dbs Archive::Zip--
17:13 dbs We've been living with broken windows and ugly graffitti too long
17:32 mmorgan left #evergreen

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