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IRC log for #evergreen, 2014-11-06

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All times shown according to the server's local time.

Time Nick Message
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07:04 csharp @quote add < jeff> and yes, i am pretty sure i just quoted dick cheney in the context of reports on bibliographic data
07:04 pinesol_green csharp: The operation succeeded.  Quote #96 added.
07:07 csharp eeevil++ # pointing out temp_file_limit
07:08 csharp that alone may make the pain of moving to 9.3 worth it ;-)
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08:16 kmlussier Good morning #evergreen
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08:52 jeff good morning!
08:53 mmorgan Good morning!
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09:21 bshum Hmm, pg_dump -j option in PG 9.3 sounds... helpful. In a future where I need faster snapshots during downtime.
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09:33 Dyrcona Pro tip: Set the ulimit for max files to 65535 for root, ejabberd, and your opensrf user. Your users will thank you.
09:38 Dyrcona bshum: I use the -j with pg_restore, but don't have 9.3 so guess don't have it with pg_dump, yet.
09:39 csharp sounds like a great addition though
09:43 bshum Dyrcona: open files or something else?
09:43 * bshum is slowly reading up on ulimit
09:44 Dyrcona bshum: That includes socket connections, 'cause sockets are basically files.
09:44 Dyrcona 65535 is the maximum on BSD and Linux kernels, but there is a patch to raise it for Linux.
09:46 Dyrcona If you see a lot of this in ejabberd.log: I(<0.530.0>:ejabberd_listener:293) : (#Port<0.2782>) Failed TCP accept: emfile
09:46 Dyrcona You definitely need to raise the limit.
09:57 tsbere bshum: If you want, poke me for what I did to make that happen ;)
09:58 * bshum pokes tsbere
09:59 tsbere bshum: Heh. /etc/security/limits.conf, add 4 lines. * and root for domain, hard and soft for type, nofile for item, and 65535 for value. The domain/type combinations are what give you the 4 lines. Note that * does not affect root, and root governs apache and ejabberd due to how their startup processes work.
10:01 * csharp doesn't see those messages in ejabberd.log
10:01 Dyrcona If you're using bricks, you've spread the load around, so you probably won't need the setting.
10:03 Dyrcona We think might also resolve a Launchpad bug that seems to only affect us.
10:04 Dyrcona At any rate, we're now using our hardware to its full potential. Load is lower than typical for this time of day, and ejabberd is not going nuts using 2 cpus.
10:04 kmlussier Dyrcona: bug 1359762?
10:04 pinesol_green Launchpad bug 1359762 in Evergreen "Internal Server Error Doing Keyword Basic Search for ISBN" (affected: 1, heat: 6) [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1359762
10:05 Dyrcona Yeah, that's the one I was thinking of. We think the lack of file handles could explain why drones were dropping unexpectedly.
10:05 bshum If "lsof | wc -l" is to believed, then we've got around ~1800 open files per app server / SIP servers, etc.
10:06 bshum Oh, wait, that's per user :)
10:06 bshum Nevermind, that user is doing NOTHING!
10:08 Dyrcona If you sudo, you'll get double the number because it won't count sockets unless you run it as root.
10:09 Dyrcona We get something like 30,000.
10:09 csharp ah - yeah - we have 6 bricks, so that may avoid the issue
10:09 Dyrcona We're running one one app server and we keep managing to squeeze more performance out of it. Not bad for a "free" server.
10:09 bshum Dyrcona: Yeah our highest is like 17k... 12k, 9k, etc.
10:10 bshum But as you say, more machines to spread out with
10:10 bshum Dyrcona++ tsbere++ # something we'll look at anyways :D
10:10 Dyrcona It's a little funny how the files are counted against the limit, it apparently goes per login session, but we were definitely running up against it.
10:10 bshum "performance" is good :)
10:12 Dyrcona By "free," I mean $8,000. We spec'd our db server at $30,000 and by the time we ordered, the price had dropped to $22,000, so we bought this server with the left over money.
10:30 Stompro What is the status of upgrading 2.6 to 2.7 - the download page just says "Coming soon!" under the upgrading section of 2.7.1.  What is the 2.6 to 2.7 upgrade path?  is it 2.6.4 -> 2.7.1?
10:31 bshum Stompro: In theory, you can go from any 2.6 to 2.7
10:32 bshum It's not explicitedly required to run up to the latest 2.6 before continuing on to 2.7.
10:32 bshum (as far as I know anyways)
10:33 bshum As far as the status of that process goes, that's a documentation effort that sometimes gets a little left behind
10:33 bshum Basically I think we need to write an updated Upgrade section for the 2.7 docs
10:33 bshum And then link to that
10:33 bshum Oh yes
10:34 bshum We definitely need some edits
10:34 bshum http://docs.evergreen-ils.org/2.7/_​upgrading_the_evergreen_server.html (is woefully out of date)
10:34 Stompro bshum: Great, I thought there were specific DB upgrade paths that were supported.  Good to know that isn't the case.
10:35 bshum Define "supported" for me, in your view.  :)
10:36 Stompro Supported = actually work.
10:37 bshum Stompro: Well, try it and let us know if it works for you.  For myself, I haven't heard anybody talk about their upgrade experiences or help write up the docs on the procedure quite yet.
10:37 bshum So I'll be mighty curious to know what you discover in your process.
10:37 Stompro Ok, will do.
10:39 Stompro Are most of the doc edits just changing s/2.6/2.7/ and OpenSRF s/2.3.0/2.4.0/ ?   Or did you see major changes to the steps?
10:40 bshum Mostly just changing that
10:40 * bshum doesn't think there's too much more
10:40 bshum But I guess we could always check the release notes for 2.7
10:40 bshum There might be tips in there for upgrading
10:41 bshum And those tips might be useful in the upgrading chapter
10:41 Stompro Sure, if no one else is already working on it, I can start making some updates to those docs.
10:44 Stompro bshum: what I was thinking of in reguards to supported upgrade paths is described on http://docs.evergreen-ils.org/2.7/_upgr​ade_the_evergreen_database_schema.html  "currently there is no automated way to upgrade from 2.5.4+ to 2.6"
10:46 bshum Well, that's something that the community is still thinking about I think.
10:48 bshum But I can see where that might become complicated depending on the contents of the version-upgrade scripts.
10:48 bshum I don't know if there's any exact pitfalls to be found between 2.6 and 2.7
10:48 csharp Stompro: the version-upgrade scripts are just collections of the numbered scripts in the "upgrade" directory, so theoretically, if you can apply all the numbered scripts encompassed by an upgrade script, you would be on whatever version you want
10:48 bshum But I expect some quirks if you do upgrade to 2.6.4 and then try going to 2.7.0 after that.
10:48 csharp 2.6-2.7 was extremely fast and simple in my case
10:48 bshum Just knowing the contents of 2.6.4's script anyways
10:48 csharp I think I went from 2.6.3-2.7.0
10:49 bshum Well, that's not true
10:49 bshum It should still work
10:49 bshum The problem would be when you tried to go from 2.7.0 to 2.7.1
10:50 bshum Since some of the same numbered scripts are in 2.6.3-2.6.4 as 2.7.0-2.7.1
10:50 bshum Since we backport the database changes
10:50 bshum Between series
10:50 * bshum hasn't looked that closely, but I think it's just if there's inserts or whatnot, those might cause the transaction to fail
10:50 bshum If a value was already inserted, obviously.
10:51 bshum If it's just function replacements, it should run okay
10:51 Stompro Thanks csharp, I'll go that route, I'm still on 2.6.3, so I'll go from 2.6.3 -> 2.7.0 -> 2.7.1
10:51 * bshum looks for the bug ticket talking about upgrades
10:52 bshum This is a long, long discussed topic of how to track version-upgrades
10:52 bshum And we're still looking for a better solution to it all, as far as I'm concerned.
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10:59 Stompro I created lp#1390138 to track updating the upgrade docs for 2.7.
11:01 bshum Stompro++
11:02 kmlussier Stompro++
11:04 bshum bug 1390138
11:04 pinesol_green Launchpad bug 1390138 in Evergreen "Documentation: 2.7 upgrade docs need to be updated" (affected: 1, heat: 6) [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1390138
11:04 bshum (cause I'm lazy)
11:04 bshum (and want the link)
11:04 rfrasur (yeah...I'm pretty sure I've never heard the word "lazy" associated with Ben)
11:10 kmlussier rfrasur++
11:12 rfrasur Hey...just an update (because I KNOW everyone was waiting on it), I "went to" the OpenHatch mentor orientation stuff yesterday.  That's a pretty cool concept (maybe it's been around for a long time and I just didn't know anything about it).  My hope is that it can be a vehicle to get Evergreen in the mindset of some college kids looking to contribute to open source.
11:13 rfrasur They were super nice about me NOT being a comp. sci. person...and being old...and several things.
11:15 kmlussier rfrasur: You're not old. Because if you're old, then I'm old.
11:15 rfrasur No, I'm not.  But it's fun to say it :D
11:15 rfrasur It means that I can wear my hair however I want and say mean things.
11:15 rfrasur :D
11:16 kmlussier rfrasur: It will be interesting to hear how it goes. Keep us posted!
11:16 rfrasur You know I will.
11:17 kmlussier rfrasur: That just means you're seasoned.
11:19 rfrasur kmlussier: so much better than unseasoned.  Plus I can make jokes about Salt 'N Peppa that few people born after 1980 get.
11:24 rfrasur Am also thinking...based on the stuff we went through for the orientation, appropriating some of the curriculum for n00bs might be helpful.  They covered a lot of stuff about vocabulary that would make end user/admin/developer/contributor communications flow a little easier.
11:24 Stompro There are makefile.install targets for fedora, debian-jessie and ubuntu-trusty, are those still experimental and shouldn't be mentioned in the docs?
11:34 Dyrcona Stompro: ubuntu-trusty just works unless you're using EDI. There are issues with Ruby, still.
11:35 Dyrcona So, I guess it should be considered experimental, unless we want to say acq is experimental. :)
11:35 Stompro Ok, I'll add that one to the upgrade docs with a note about EDI and the bug report.
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11:39 Dyrcona ruby--
11:57 csharp @karma ruby
11:57 pinesol_green csharp: Karma for "ruby" has been increased 0 times and decreased 3 times for a total karma of -3.
12:00 jboyer-isl ruby--
12:00 jboyer-isl Couldn't let that pass by.
12:00 rfrasur parts--
12:01 jboyer-isl That's more like parts+-
12:03 csharp @karma [someone]
12:03 pinesol_green Karma for "collum" has been increased 20 times and decreased 0 times for a total karma of 20.
12:04 rfrasur no, jboyer-isl.  It must be parts-- since kmlussier quit.  >:)
12:04 bshum Oh are we minusing parts?
12:04 bshum parts--
12:04 bshum :D
12:04 rfrasur yeah boy
12:04 mmorgan Hey!!
12:04 mmorgan parts++
12:04 bshum rfrasur++ :D
12:04 eeevil mmorgan++ :)
12:04 rfrasur hehe
12:05 * rfrasur is persistent and unworried.
12:05 jboyer-isl Ah, taking the troll train to loltown. I dig it.
12:06 rfrasur oh yeah.  We short people understand trolling.
12:06 eeevil we could schedule a dance-fight over parts at the next EG conf, a la sharks/jets
12:06 jboyer-isl *snap* *snap*
12:06 bshum Haha
12:06 rfrasur Well....dancing...that's not really in my wheel house.  How about rock wall climbing?
12:06 * rfrasur shrugs
12:07 jcamins eeevil: in one of my dance classes, they actually split the room up like that, and had us practicing whatever it was going back and forth, with snapping to keep time.
12:07 jcamins I was the only one who started singing "When you're a Jet, you're a Jet all the way..."
12:07 RoganH joined #evergreen
12:08 jboyer-isl The only thing I know about the shark/jets scene is the beginning where one of them kind of snaps left and right as they walk. I bet we're all at least that coordinated. No idea what happens next though.
12:08 jcamins jboyer-isl: that's all _anyone_ remembers.
12:08 jboyer-isl Parts knife fight I guress.
12:08 * eeevil 's dance classes consist of Just Dance 2014 sessions at parties...
12:08 rfrasur jboyer-isl: I think they all fall over? I dunno.
12:10 rfrasur (parts--)
12:10 dananji joined #evergreen
12:11 rfrasur jcamins: did you get an email about foldscope recently?
12:11 eeevil rfrasur: so, like in accounting () makes it negative, right? I'LL TAKE THAT AS AN INC FOR PARTS, THANKS! ;)
12:11 jcamins rfrasur: I did, yeah.
12:11 jcamins I enjoyed the "we totally didn't think it was going to be hard to make 10k paper microscopes."
12:11 mmorgan :-D
12:11 * eeevil stops beating that horse ... it's dead, jim
12:11 rfrasur eeevil: you can take it as whatever you want :D.  I only care about the karma counter.
12:12 jboyer-isl jcamins: NO ONE EVER EXPECTS... aaactually 10K is so many.
12:12 rfrasur jcamins: that did make me chuckle, but it's cool.
12:13 mmorgan In that case (parts++) :)
12:13 rfrasur mmorgan!  Oy.  I see lines have been drawn.
12:13 * rfrasur restrategizes.
12:14 jcamins rfrasur: yeah, they can take as long as they want. It is a charity, and they are making 10k microscopes.
12:14 rfrasur jcamins: exactly.
12:14 dMiller_ joined #evergreen
12:17 * bshum is going to edit Launchpad to start new milestones
12:17 bshum And close up old ones
12:17 rfrasur bshum++
12:18 RoganH bshum: you should just start attaching theme names like lollipop and kitkat, no one else has done that right?
12:19 jihpringle joined #evergreen
12:20 csharp "Krazy Konifer"
12:20 bshum I set 2014-12-17 (the next, next maintenance date) as the expected date for the new milestones, since I don't think we'll have much to make another round of releases in a few weeks (the next is 2014-11-19)
12:20 bshum But that's more or less arbitrary.
12:20 bshum mjingle++ # tell her we're excited to see her on board with ESI :)
12:21 Dyrcona Dashing Dewey
12:21 bshum Dyrcona++ # never gets old ;)
12:21 csharp maryj = mjingle, right? ;-)
12:21 bshum Aha, different handle
12:21 Dyrcona csharp: if mjingle is true, yes. :)
12:22 csharp Dyrcona++
12:22 * Dyrcona is being too literal. :)
12:23 * bshum is going to skip making a 2.5.9 for now
12:23 Dyrcona It is interesting watching the load on the Evergreen server after having made the ulimit changes last night.
12:23 bshum We can make it if there needs to be more 2.5 series milestones later.
12:23 Dyrcona The load has gone up to 6 or so, but usually ends up back down to 2, or even 1.8 or so, before too long.
12:24 Dyrcona Instead of y'know, hitting 8 and staying there, then dropping to 4 and staying there.
12:24 eeevil aye, mjingle == maryj
12:24 csharp maryj++
12:24 bshum maryj++
12:24 RoganH maryj++
12:25 Dyrcona maryj++ # jumping on the bandwagon
12:25 eeevil maryj++ # indeed
12:25 csharp another Georgia native on board!
12:25 mllewellyn joined #evergreen
12:25 rfrasur maryj++ #that's pretty awesome
12:26 csharp Dyrcona: does your parallel reingest process suffice for the post 2.7-ish upgrade reingest?
12:27 * csharp has never wrapped his head fully around what's actually necessary in a reingest
12:27 Dyrcona csharp: It might, but I don't recall if I pushed my modified version or not.
12:28 bshum csharp: Between 2.6 and 2.7, I think we only mentioned the need for that record attribute reingest.  Not sure how much you're reingesting for other reasons.
12:29 Dyrcona csharp: The public version doesn't do the record_attribute reingest, but it is my custom branch. I'll merge those changes and push to my evergreen_utilities repo.
12:29 csharp bshum: no other reasons.  I just see what's at the bottom of the 2.5.X-2.6 script, which suggests the marc = marc style reingest
12:29 csharp Dyrcona: excellent
12:31 csharp is there a way to do a attribute-only reingest?
12:31 csharp (see? I don't know! ;-))
12:32 csharp whatever I do, it needs to be parallel, so I was going to do something similar to the 1.6-2.0 approach
12:32 csharp but if Dyrcona's scripts do it, I'll use those
12:35 Dyrcona csharp: This is going to take a little more work that I thought. I made two changes in one commit that I should split, 'cause I think the master branch should skip deleted bibs, but my custom branch includes them.
12:35 csharp ah
12:36 csharp well, I can just do the marc = marc style for now and parallelize it like I've done in the past
12:37 Dyrcona The custom branch is publicly available in the same place.
12:37 csharp oh
12:37 Dyrcona But, I'll add the metarecord attributes reingest to the master branch, too.
12:40 nhilton joined #evergreen
12:41 * bshum uses the bugmaster to change statuses on tons of stuff in LP finally.
12:41 bshum (if you don't filter, you should!)
12:42 Dyrcona csharp: That feature should be in the master branch, now.
12:43 Dyrcona bshum: Unless of course, you don't want to filter, or are happy with the level of filtering you already do.
12:43 Dyrcona ;)
12:43 bshum Dyrcona: True....
12:43 * bshum kind of misses spamming everybody with "fix released" messages.
12:43 * bshum also misses the extra karma bumps
12:44 Dyrcona Heh.. my custom branch exists solely to remove 1 line from 1 script.
12:48 csharp Dyrcona: thanks!
12:48 csharp Dyrcona++
12:48 csharp bshum++ # justcuz
12:50 csharp @karma bshum
12:50 pinesol_green csharp: Karma for "bshum" has been increased 865 times and decreased 2 times for a total karma of 863.
12:50 rfrasur Dyrcona++ #even though you eschew karma
12:50 rfrasur bshum++ #because
12:51 kbutler joined #evergreen
12:51 rfrasur csharp++ #also because
12:51 rfrasur parts-- #also because
12:51 mmorgan :-(
12:52 rfrasur mmorgan++
12:54 csharp OMG - git rebase -i rox
12:54 csharp bshum: so glad you showed me the details of that
12:55 bshum csharp: And now you're *this much closer* to running master ;)
12:56 kmlussier joined #evergreen
12:56 * bshum imagines kmlussier coming to rescue parts
12:56 * rfrasur smiles innocently at kmlussier.
12:58 * kmlussier is confused
12:58 nhilton_ joined #evergreen
12:58 * mmorgan is grateful for an ally re: parts
12:59 mmorgan @karma parts
12:59 pinesol_green mmorgan: Karma for "parts" has been increased 18 times and decreased 25 times for a total karma of -7.
12:59 Dyrcona csharp: yes, git rebase -i does, indeed, rock.
12:59 rfrasur @coffee kmlussier
12:59 * pinesol_green brews and pours a cup of Kenya AA Top, and sends it sliding down the bar to kmlussier
13:00 kmlussier Oh, I see now. I log out of IRC to spend my time helping out with the Evergreen conference, and you all take advantage of my absence to abuse parts. ;)
13:00 rfrasur That MIGHT have happened.
13:00 rfrasur @dessert mmorgan
13:00 * pinesol_green grabs some Apple Pie for mmorgan
13:01 mmorgan Yum! I'll cut it up into parts
13:01 * mmorgan ducks
13:01 * rfrasur laughs
13:01 rfrasur nice
13:01 kmlussier mmorgan++
13:01 rfrasur @karma mmorgan
13:01 pinesol_green rfrasur: Karma for "mmorgan" has been increased 45 times and decreased 0 times for a total karma of 45.
13:02 kmlussier parts++ parts++ parts++ parts++ parts++
13:02 kmlussier That should make up for all the negative karma I see in the logs.
13:02 csharp @whocares part
13:02 pinesol_green csharp: I can't find anyone who loves or hates part.
13:03 csharp @whocares parts
13:03 * rfrasur laughs outloud and gets funny looks from a patron.
13:03 pinesol_green kmlussier loves parts
13:03 pinesol_green bshum and Dyrcona hate parts
13:03 kmlussier Ah, one more for good measure. parts++
13:03 kmlussier @karma parts
13:03 pinesol_green kmlussier: Karma for "parts" has been increased 24 times and decreased 25 times for a total karma of -1.
13:03 rfrasur @karma parts
13:03 pinesol_green rfrasur: Karma for "parts" has been increased 24 times and decreased 25 times for a total karma of -1.
13:03 csharp haha
13:03 rfrasur do it, kmlussier.  You know you want to.
13:03 kmlussier mmorgan: Care to put it over the edge?
13:03 mmorgan parts++
13:03 csharp this is like watching the election returns the other night
13:03 kmlussier parts++
13:04 csharp (except, like, fun)
13:04 mmorgan :-D
13:04 kmlussier csharp: Yes, this is much more fun.
13:04 rfrasur But, be reminded.  Librarians who weed collection get bored easily...and are also sneaky and patient.
13:04 kmlussier @karma parts
13:04 pinesol_green kmlussier: Karma for "parts" has been increased 26 times and decreased 25 times for a total karma of 1.
13:04 kmlussier Woo hoo!
13:04 csharp @quote add < rfrasur> But, be reminded.  Librarians who weed collection get bored easily...and are also sneaky and patient.
13:04 pinesol_green csharp: The operation succeeded.  Quote #97 added.
13:04 rfrasur Be afraid
13:09 maryj Oh! I was afk.
13:09 maryj (Not anymore.) Thanks everyone! I'm thrilled to be with ESI now! :)
13:09 csharp maryj: :-D
13:10 rfrasur maryj++ #one more time.  I think we're pretty happy you're with ESI.
13:10 * rfrasur speaks for the whole wide world.
13:12 rfrasur (okay...speaking for myself...but I'm pretty happy about it)
13:14 maryj :)
13:15 bshum And open bugs back below 1000 now.  Whew.
13:15 * bshum wanders off to lunch :)
13:15 kmlussier maryj++
13:16 * kmlussier is just catching up
13:20 rfrasur RoganH: per earlier conversation - our state lib is apparently having a speaker from the Board of Accounts that created a 5 page powerpoint to show us how to get to the accounting manual.  There might be a pervasive misunderstanding of what librarians can do?
13:20 RoganH rfrasur: *sigh*
13:20 rfrasur powerpoint=go to this website>click this link>click this link>end
13:21 rfrasur meanwhile the agenda link for the workshop is dead.  Classy.
13:21 RoganH rfrasur: I know there are ... slow elements in our profession but there are in every field, sometimes it feels like everyone thinks librarians are relics of the 19th century
13:22 rfrasur RoganH: Yep.  I blame that on my increasing use of the F word. :D
13:22 rfrasur Well, that and other things...but related ones.
13:23 RoganH I've had people make comments to me about how stupid librarians are as if sympathizing with me for having to deal with them all the time and they're aghast when I tell them I'm one of "them."  /sigh
13:25 rfrasur Seriously?  I mean, there are a few in any profession (I know dumb doctors), but wow.  Huh.
13:26 rfrasur hmm.  Dumb is the wrong word.
13:27 RoganH The right word is inappropriate for logged forum.
13:27 rfrasur Truth
13:30 mrpeters joined #evergreen
13:44 edoceo joined #evergreen
13:46 nhilton joined #evergreen
13:46 rfrasur Heading out.  Peace to y'all
13:46 rfrasur parts--
13:53 kmlussier Ah, rfrasur is sneaky, isn't she?
13:55 berick kmlussier: i suggest @later for all of your revenge / bringing balance to the parts universe needs.
13:55 * berick starts a war
13:55 kmlussier berick: Thanks! I just might do that.
13:56 gmcharlt RoganH: is the jobs page rate for some links from the menu?
13:56 gmcharlt s/rate/ready/
13:56 RoganH gmcharlt: I was about to poke you and kmlussier on exactly that.  Yes.
13:56 RoganH I think I've found the major idiosyncratic behaviors of the plugin at this point.
13:56 gmcharlt what's the rundown on those?
13:57 RoganH One, regardless of when you post the position as expiring it always sets it to one month later exactly so after you post you have to go back and edit that.
13:58 RoganH Two, It likes to run text together and ignore carrier returns from things you paste in so you need to preview first and do some cleanup.
13:58 RoganH Three, it ignores the settings for social media and automatically posts to the G+ and Facebook accounts even if you unclick those so be sure it's not marked as publish yet if you don't want it to be.  :)
13:58 RoganH I found number 3 out the hard way.
13:58 gmcharlt *cough*
13:58 kmlussier We all found out about number 3. :)
13:58 gmcharlt :)
13:59 yboston heads up the DIG monthly meeting will begin in a minute
13:59 kmlussier RoganH: Is it automatically posting to the blog? If so, it would explain why it's ignoring the social media settings.
14:00 RoganH kmlussier: hmmm... I haven't checked.
14:00 snigdha26 joined #evergreen
14:00 RoganH kmlussier: nope
14:00 kmlussier RoganH: I haven't seen anything come through on the blog, but we have something else that automatically posts blog content to Google+ and Facebook.
14:00 yboston #startmeeting 2014-11-06 - DIG Monthly Meeting Evergreen Documentation Interest Group (DIG) Monthly Meeting.
14:00 pinesol_green Meeting started Thu Nov  6 14:00:44 2014 US/Eastern.  The chair is yboston. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:00 pinesol_green Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
14:00 pinesol_green The meeting name has been set to '2014_11_06___dig_monthly_meeting_evergreen_docu​mentation_interest_group__dig__monthly_meeting_'
14:00 RoganH kmlussier: I didn't think so but I wanted to be sure and nope.
14:00 yboston The agenda can be found here http://evergreen-ils.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?i​d=evergreen-docs:dig_meeting_20141106-agenda
14:00 * kmlussier shuts up and pays attention to yboston
14:01 yboston #topic Introductions
14:01 yboston Please feel free to start introducing yourselves...
14:01 yboston #info yboston is Yamil Suarez @ Berklee College of Music - DIG meeting facilitator
14:01 remingtron #info remingtron is Remington Steed, Hekman Library (Calvin College)
14:01 kmlussier #info kmlussier is Kathy Lussier, MassLNC
14:01 snigdha26 #info snigdha26 is Snigdha Dagar, OPW candidate
14:01 phasefx #info phasefx is Jason Etheridge, ESI (lurking)
14:02 kbutler #info kbutler is Kate Butler, Rodgers Library (Hudson, NH)
14:02 yboston I will wait about a minute before we start
14:02 RoganH #info RoganH, Rogan Hamby (SCLENDS) (lurking) (mainly because I was here anyway)
14:02 sandbergja #info sandbergja is Jane Sandberg, Linn-Benton Community College (Albany, OR)
14:03 yboston moving on...
14:03 yboston #topic Updates from Content Coordinators
14:04 yboston do we have any updates this time around?
14:04 kmlussier I don't have any updates
14:04 yboston OK, and it looks liek Robert is not here today
14:04 yboston so we can move to past action items
14:05 yboston 1) kmlussier will check in on list to help move along pending 2.7 docs
14:05 phasefx_ joined #evergreen
14:06 yboston any comments kmlussier ?
14:06 yboston I beleive we might be all set with 2.7, oor is there anything missing?
14:06 kmlussier Sorry. We are still missing a couple of things. One is something I volunteered to do.
14:06 kmlussier And the other is something that krvmga worked on. He was going to send them along to me, but I haven't received them yet.
14:07 yboston would you like to have someone help you or collborate with you?
14:07 kmlussier For my piece, no. Sorry, I've been busy, but my time has actually freed up a bit. I'll do it tomorrow.
14:07 kmlussier But if somebody would like to poke krvmga about the added content docs, that might help.
14:07 kmlussier Also, I don't think we have anything on RDA yet.
14:08 yboston I can contact krvmga if you want?
14:08 kmlussier #link http://wiki.evergreen-ils.org/dok​u.php?id=evergreen-docs:2.7_needs
14:09 kmlussier yboston: That would be helpful. Somebody else was working on added content too. I don't know if it overlaps with what krvmga did.
14:09 Stompro #Info Stompro is Josh Stompro, Lake Agassiz Regional Library, MN
14:09 yboston kmlussier: do you mean the docs for listing local images?
14:09 yboston that would be (the wonderful) Josh
14:10 kmlussier yboston: There were 2 parts of it. Listing by local images was one, but there was also something specific to Content Cafe.
14:10 yboston I see
14:10 kmlussier yboston: Did the Display "Imported As" in Vandelay make it in? That's the only other new feature I'm seeing that isn't marked as completed on the wiki.
14:10 * kmlussier thinks it was just an updated screenshot, right?
14:10 yboston BTW, I just checked the "master" docs PDF and did not see the RDA section docuemnted yet
14:11 yboston I thought I had done the RDA stuff, but I defiently did the "imported as"
14:11 kmlussier I thought jpringle was doing something with RDA.
14:12 kmlussier OK, I'll update the wiki page on the Vandelay thing.
14:12 yboston I remember now, yes Jennifer was going to add it to the
14:12 yboston cataloging docs
14:13 yboston BTW< I just verified the "imported as" is in "master" docs
14:13 kmlussier If I have time after putting the marc stream importer docs into asciidoc, I can do RDA. It should be simple, just a note saying what we support.
14:13 yboston kmlussier: sure but let Jennifer knwo if you do
14:14 kmlussier yboston: Yes, I'll do that.
14:14 yboston #action yboston will contact krvmga to check in on his 2.7 docs work
14:14 yboston kmlussier: what should I put you down for, if anything?
14:14 kmlussier I'll complete the marc stream importer work and check on the status of the RDA docs.
14:15 BigRig joined #evergreen
14:15 yboston #action kmlussier will complete the marc stream importer work and check on the status of the RDA docs.
14:15 yboston may I move on?
14:15 kmlussier yes
14:16 yboston (the next old action item was for me to bring up reviewing 2.7 pending issues. so I am skipping it)
14:16 yboston 2) remingtron will start a thread on DIG list on documenting the web client
14:16 Callender joined #evergreen
14:16 phasefx joined #evergreen
14:16 yboston remingtron: any comments?
14:16 remingtron sure
14:16 remingtron I posted a wiki page and sent it to the DIG list, and I'll find that link...
14:17 yboston I have it
14:17 yboston #link http://evergreen-ils.org/dokuwiki/d​oku.php?id=evergreen-docs:webclient
14:17 remingtron thanks
14:17 remingtron And here's an email thread that followed:
14:17 remingtron #link http://markmail.org/thread/q6umnsqu7xg4af6j
14:17 yboston did you get any takers at the time? should we try again on the general list?
14:18 remingtron I had one interested party and can't remember who it was
14:18 eeevil joined #evergreen
14:18 remingtron I know Sally Fortin was mentioned as being involved through Equinox
14:18 yboston since we are between relese versions, should we make a small team to work on it?
14:19 remingtron sure, that's a good idea, with the hope that we shift back to 2.8 docs when appropriate
14:19 yboston alternatively, set a deadline for all of us to get some docs done by next meeting?
14:19 kmlussier I still think it would be a good idea to schedule a day for people to focus on it.
14:20 kmlussier Similar to Bug Squashing Day. Web Client Documentation Day
14:20 remingtron I'm game for a "Web Staff Client Docs Squashing Day"
14:20 yboston kmlussier: love it
14:20 kmlussier Or maybe not an entire day if that's too difficult for people.
14:20 kmlussier remingtron: Yes, let's get "squashing" in there. :)
14:21 yboston we might need a few hours to think through how we shoudl approach things
14:21 yboston though we may be able to do that by email befoer the sqaushing day
14:21 kmlussier We could do that ahead of time through e-mail.
14:22 remingtron I would appreciate feedback on the wiki page, which proposes an outline for web client docs
14:22 remingtron at least during the preview
14:22 maryj joined #evergreen
14:23 remingtron (doesn't have to be now, just before we hold a day of working on it)
14:23 yboston shoudl we make a Doodle poll to find a day or half day to work on this?
14:23 kmlussier remingtron: This page here?
14:23 kmlussier http://evergreen-ils.org/dokuwiki/d​oku.php?id=evergreen-docs:web_staff​_client_workflow_and_label_changes
14:24 remingtron kmlussier: I just meant the page yboston posted for me earlier:
14:24 remingtron http://evergreen-ils.org/dokuwiki/d​oku.php?id=evergreen-docs:webclient
14:24 remingtron (sorry to be unclear)
14:24 kmlussier remingtron: No, you weren't. I was just confused.
14:24 yboston remingtron: would you set up a Doodle poll to see if we can find a time?
14:25 remingtron yboston: sure, sign me up for that action item
14:25 yboston do we want to narrow down the time frame before hand?
14:25 yboston like ...
14:25 yboston between now and December?
14:25 yboston we can debate it by email too, sicne more people coudl chime in
14:26 remingtron yeah, let's do it by email
14:26 yboston (sorry for the bad spelling)
14:26 kmlussier It's a good goal, just remember that the end of November will be difficult.
14:26 yboston not for our Canadian friends
14:26 remingtron I'll aim the poll at early December
14:27 yboston #action remingtron will set up a Doodle poll to find a dai to exclusively work on web client docs (remotely)
14:27 yboston should I go to the next old action item? it deal with remingtron's re-org proposals
14:28 remingtron sure
14:28 yboston 3) remingtron will create a wiki page to collect ideas for a docs re-org
14:28 yboston #link http://evergreen-ils.org/dokuwiki/do​ku.php?id=evergreen-docs:reorg_2014
14:29 yboston remingtron: thanks for making this page
14:29 yboston any comments?
14:29 remingtron you are welcome :)
14:29 remingtron no comments or edits yet
14:29 Stompro I started to look at this but become overwhelmed with looking at the whole structure.
14:29 kbutler ditto
14:29 remingtron Stompro: kbutler: thanks for your interest
14:30 yboston I hope that woriking on the web client docs will naturally gives us a chance to try out new organizations
14:30 remingtron what if we start with basic, very broad structure?
14:30 Stompro I would like to start with some small things, like combining all the tpac/catalog docs into one section.
14:30 remingtron Stompro: good idea, +1
14:31 remingtron kbutler: do you have a specific area of interest? or more the broad structure of the docs?
14:31 yboston remingtron: can you give me a beter idea of what you mean?
14:31 graced joined #evergreen
14:31 kmlussier I think one area of confusion is the Evergreen in Action stuff was added a separately, because we wanted that content in our official docs, but it also replicates information already in there.
14:31 TaraC joined #evergreen
14:32 kmlussier I wonder if it would be better to set them under an "Evergreen in Action" heading to make it easier to understand why it's there.
14:32 remingtron kmlussier: right, I think the current organization is a bit messy
14:32 remingtron it seems we could approach the problem from different angles:
14:33 kbutler remingtron: I think I am more interested in the overall structure. The way it is right now is overwhelming with way too many topics on the same level
14:33 remingtron 1. make small improvements like Stompro suggested (very much appreciated!)
14:33 yboston Stompro++
14:33 remingtron 2. medium level improvements by combining Evergreen In Action more nicely
14:34 remingtron 3. rethink the structure from scratch (similar to some of snigdha26's ideas)
14:35 remingtron maybe #1 and #2 can happen now, and #3 is a long term goal
14:35 yboston I agree with #1 and #2 being able to happen now
14:35 kbutler +1 - I think accomplishing #1 and #2 will make #3 easier in the long run
14:37 * kmlussier can work on #2
14:37 kmlussier Or just the Evergreen in Action piece of it. Maybe there are other medium level improvements.
14:37 remingtron kmlussier++
14:37 yboston should we find volunteers to work on re-org tasks?
14:37 yboston or an assignment for the whole crew?
14:38 Stompro I'll work on #1, specifically getting the catalog releated docs in one spot.
14:39 remingtron Stompro++
14:40 yboston I can try to work on #3
14:40 yboston BTW kmlussier, Simmons has just anounced a NOvember 21st deadline to apply for an MLS intern
14:41 yboston I may want to apply for an intern to help with work like the re-org
14:41 yboston so should we start another thread in the mailing list? should we set a deadline?
14:41 yboston what about having a seperate IRC meeting to compare re-org ideas?
14:42 kmlussier yboston: Great! Keep us posted.
14:42 remingtron yboston: yes, separate meeting sounds good
14:42 remingtron then we can come prepared with ideas to share, and hopefully reach a concensus
14:43 remingtron yboston: I propose that it be a meeting focused on idea #3 though
14:43 yboston I can create a doodle poll for chatting about re-org, how long from now should I shoot for?
14:43 remingtron since #1 and #2 seem doable by a single person without group decisions
14:43 yboston yes, focusing on #3 is fine
14:44 remingtron maybe postpone that meeting until January? don't want to distract from web client docs day
14:44 remingtron thoughts everyone?
14:44 yboston no problem
14:44 kmlussier Yes, let's spread out the work. :)
14:44 Stompro January sounds good.
14:44 yboston I also tink that while working ont he web lcients docs we can start experimenting with re-orgs
14:45 remingtron so December is web client docs, January is docs re-organization planning
14:45 yboston remingtron: yes, O with me
14:45 yboston *OK
14:45 yboston BTW, we are at the 45 minute mark
14:46 remingtron I'll send a doodle for the January meeting too
14:46 yboston thanks!
14:47 yboston #action remingtron will set up doodle to set up a meeting on IRC in Janaury 2015 to discuss re-organizing the EG docs
14:47 yboston if we decide to move on, the next old action is about setting up a DIG VM
14:48 yboston though, I have nothing much to add abotu that topic at this point
14:48 yboston should I move on?
14:48 remingtron still something we want to pursue?
14:49 yboston I think we should have a secodn server that build the docs every day
14:49 yboston or maybe multiple times a day
14:49 remingtron Robert already made his server build twice a day, right?
14:49 yboston remingtron: is that what you meant?
14:49 yboston I was not aware of that
14:50 remingtron hm, let me check his email...
14:50 yboston also, we could have the second server be used to test re-organizations
14:50 kmlussier It's not just the multiple builds. If we want to make changes to the docs site, it's good to have a place to test them out ahead of time before putting them into production.
14:50 yboston though in theory we can set up Robert's server to do that, though I beleive his servers are pretty taxed already
14:50 remingtron on 10/3/2014 Robert emailed me and yboston, saying he added a 1pm build time to his docs server
14:50 * kmlussier is thinking of some of the ideas snigdha26 raised at the last DIG meeting.
14:51 yboston I need to learn how to read better
14:51 remingtron yboston: no prob, you're a busy guy
14:52 remingtron yboston: did we have a potential host for our new test docs VM?
14:52 yboston PINES provides VMs for the EG community
14:52 yboston and Galen started the discussion on provisioning a server for us
14:53 remingtron anything we need to do to keep that moving forward?
14:53 yboston someitme in the last four weeks we talked abotu RAM needs for exmale
14:53 yboston *example
14:53 yboston I think I just need to follow up with Galen and Robert
14:54 remingtron sounds good, I think it's worth pushing forward, for all the reasons mentioned
14:54 yboston #action yboston will follow up with gmcharlt and Robert about provisioning a VM for DIG
14:54 yboston BTW, we are down to the last 5 minutes, if we want to stop at the hour mark
14:54 yboston no more old actions to discuss
14:55 remingtron what about snigdha26's ideas?
14:55 yboston before I forget, sandbergja++
14:55 kmlussier Indeed sandbergja++
14:56 sandbergja yboston: kmlussier: Awww, thanks
14:56 kmlussier Work on the hard due date docs was long overdue - no pun intended.
14:56 yboston ha ha ha
14:56 kmlussier Well, maybe it was intended.
14:56 yboston kmlussier: any comments on snigdha26's ideas, we are sitll on a holding pattern?
14:56 remingtron sandbergja++
14:57 remingtron I love snigdha26's ideas for better TOC navigation in a sidebar, and easy to find "Get help" box at top right of the page
14:58 yboston me too
14:58 kmlussier remingtron is right. There is an agenda item on snigdha26's doc site ideas.
14:58 kbutler I thought the ideas were very good.
14:58 yboston my apologies that we have hit the hour mark already, I can stay on longer
14:58 kmlussier But is this a leftover agenda item from last month?
14:59 yboston I thought ti was leftover, but I could be wrong
14:59 remingtron I don't recall discussing it much, or at least not deciding to try anything
14:59 remingtron maybe we got sidetracked with needing a test server
14:59 remingtron but I think we can decide to try things before the server is ready
15:00 kmlussier remingtron: I think we're in an awkward period at the moment because snigdha26 has incorporated a lot of these ideas in her proposal, but the application review period isn't over yet.
15:00 remingtron kmlussier: right, you mean that if accepted, she would do these things herself?
15:00 kmlussier remingtron: Yes, exactly.
15:00 remingtron kmlussier: cool, we can wait on discussing it further then
15:00 kmlussier I do remember there was a bit of feedback last month, though, and she did incorporate a lot of that feedback in her proposal.
15:01 remingtron snigdha26++
15:01 kmlussier snigdha26++ #Bring forward lots of great ideas to improve our docs!
15:01 kmlussier Ugh, excuse my poor grammar.
15:01 yboston snigdha26++
15:02 jihpringle joined #evergreen
15:02 yboston do we want to discuss anything else fromt he old topcia section, or something compeltely different? Should we end the meeting now?
15:03 * kmlussier votes for ending the meeting.
15:03 remingtron I'm satisfied too
15:04 yboston I am OK with ending too, but if any one has any particualr DIG related question you can ask after I end the meeting or use the DIG list or contact me directly
15:04 yboston #endmeeting
15:04 pinesol_green Meeting ended Thu Nov  6 15:04:30 2014 US/Eastern.  Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot . (v 0.1.4)
15:04 pinesol_green Minutes:        http://evergreen-ils.org/meetings/evergr​een/2014/evergreen.2014-11-06-14.00.html
15:04 pinesol_green Minutes (text): http://evergreen-ils.org/meetings/evergr​een/2014/evergreen.2014-11-06-14.00.txt
15:04 pinesol_green Log:            http://evergreen-ils.org/meetings/evergree​n/2014/evergreen.2014-11-06-14.00.log.html
15:04 remingtron yboston++ #faithful leader
15:05 yboston grcias amigo
15:05 yboston *gracias
15:05 kmlussier yboston++
15:05 Stompro Thank you to whomever(Robert?) added the google custom search facets to the docs site, and to adding links to all the schema docs.
15:06 kmlussier jihpringle: We were just talking about the RDA docs in the DIG meeting. Was that something you were planning work on?
15:06 kmlussier jihpringle: If not, I can whip something up tomorrow.
15:06 yboston Stompro: that would have been Robert
15:07 jihpringle kmlussier: yes, I have the docs partially done but it's more than just RDA, the last month was busier than expected so I haven't had time to finish
15:07 jihpringle if you want to whip something up I incorporate my other MARC editor/cataloguing bits around it
15:08 jihpringle I probably won't have time to get back to it until the end of November
15:08 Stompro rsoulliere++
15:08 kmlussier jihpringle: OK, I can do that. And then you can improve upon it. Thanks!
15:08 jihpringle no, thank you :)
15:21 b_bonner_ joined #evergreen
15:27 maryj 3v3rgr33n
15:27 maryj (Yes, I'm so immersed into learning Evergreen that I'm somehow speaking L33t now.)
15:31 kmlussier RoganH: So the job posting that just came through the Google+ Evergreen page is a real one this time?
15:31 RoganH kmlussier: yes, this time :)
15:36 RoganH kmlussier: no promises about the next time though
15:37 kmlussier Heh
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16:06 jeff well that's... interesting.
16:07 jeff record with <leader>01511cjm a2200421Ii 4500</leader> has metabib.record_attr.attrs->'item_type' of i
16:07 eeevil jeff: I own you a "crap you were right" ;)
16:08 jeff eeevil: uhoh
16:09 eeevil your suggestion to wrap the session.delete in a try ... I should have heeded that, as it turns out
16:09 jeff heh
16:09 jeff and an if! ;-)
16:09 eeevil because auth get's /very/ angry at you when you don't give it a session to delete
16:09 eeevil https://bugs.launchpad.net/evergreen/+bug/1390225 (for the group to follow along)
16:09 pinesol_green Launchpad bug 1390225 in Evergreen 2.7 "auth timeout redirect causes an error" (affected: 1, heat: 6) [Undecided,New]
16:11 sandbergja joined #evergreen
16:11 RoganH joined #evergreen
16:11 jeff commit c2c720d is what i had way-back-when
16:11 jeff and the bot doesn't do working branches.
16:11 jeff c2c720d
16:11 jeff er, http://git.evergreen-ils.org/?p=worki​ng/Evergreen.git;a=commitdiff;h=c2c72​0de6fb83aa1acc678de78a1695cf8201eb5
16:17 jeff eeevil: heh. specific to the issue in bug 1390225, i remembered that earlier this morning i had minimized a browser window to test that very thing. just un-minimized it, and guess what? error. :-)
16:17 pinesol_green Launchpad bug 1390225 in Evergreen 2.7 "auth timeout redirect causes an error" (affected: 1, heat: 6) [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1390225
16:17 jeff eeevil: sorry for not thinking of that specific case in our conversation earlier. :-)
16:17 * jeff returns to looking oddly at this bib that is j in the leader but i in the mra
16:18 Stompro Are there any best practices when it comes to cleaning up the /openils/var/web/xul/rel_* files?  Should there be something in the upgrade docs about deleting old versions?
16:18 eeevil jeff: np, of course
16:19 Dyrcona jeff: Close, yes.
16:23 gsams I'm curious about how renewals work in Evergreen.  It seems to me at one point when selecting renew all on a patrons account it would process all of the renewals in a concurrent fashion, however it currrently processes each renewal individually in our system.
16:23 gsams Is this how it normally functions for other systems?
16:26 gsams Hopefully that explanation made sense
16:34 Dyrcona Stompro: Leaving them behind allows a small measure of backward compatibility for old clients.
16:34 Dyrcona Stompro: That said, we typically blow them all away during an upgrade.
16:35 mmorgan gsams: Do you mean you need to answer a prompt for each item that's being renewed?
16:36 gsams mmorgan: No prompt, it just visibly processes each renewal one at a time
16:37 gsams for some libraries this is alright, but we have a few that process 50+ renewals regularly and that can take up quite a bit of time at that pace
16:37 gsams 50+ renewals per account I should say
16:37 Stompro Dyrcona: So the upgrade docs could say something like "Once all your staff stations have upgraded to the curent version of the staff client, you can delete the old versions of the staff client files from ..."
16:38 Dyrcona Stompro: I have no opinion on what the docs should say.... We delete them during the upgrade and let the client auto-update do its thing.
16:39 Stompro Dyrcona: Ok, thanks for the info.
16:40 gsams mmorgan: I just wasn't sure if it was a functionality choice that was made along the way for Evergreen or if it was something that was tweaked for our system specifically.  It can take upwards of 15 minutes to process a single account's renewals at one of our libraries.
16:43 mmorgan gsams: 15 minutes is a very long time to process a transaction. Sounds more like a system performance issue.
16:45 Dyrcona gsams: If that's the case, doing it concurrently, i.e. one trip to the server and back, would likely time out on the client and the renewals would not happen.
16:47 bshum Indeed, that doesn't sound like happy performance at all :(
16:50 mrpeters joined #evergreen
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17:04 gsams The system should be able to process the transactions pretty quickly, at least I would expect it to.  It's a source of confusion for me anyway
17:05 pinesol_green Incoming from qatests: Test Failure - http://testing.evergreen-ils.org/~live/test.html <http://testing.evergreen-ils.org/~live/test.html>
17:10 mmorgan left #evergreen
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17:26 gsams I'm thinking it might be exageration by circulation employees at the moment
17:26 gsams ran a test of 50 items in less than 50 seconds
17:27 gsams I might need to run that during different hours to test peak times
17:28 gsams of course, this library has some people that circulate 100-200 items at a time
17:46 gsams well, testing aside, how does this function in other systems?  Does anyone handle renewals concurrently?
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