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IRC log for #evergreen, 2013-10-28

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Time Nick Message
02:05 fparks joined #evergreen
02:40 paxed hm. so TPAC doesn't support metarecord holds? i'm boggled.
02:40 paxed our patrons would scream murder if that didn't work.
03:11 paxed (assuming i understood things correctly...)
05:26 paxed is it intentional the "random" password in Patron Reg (uEditMakeRandomPw() in register.js) is right-padded with zeroes, instead of left-padded? if the rand number is 1, 10, 100 or 1000, the password will be "1000"
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07:32 csharp bug 1053397
07:32 pinesol_green Launchpad bug 1053397 in Evergreen "TPAC - Missing Meta-record Level Hold" (affected: 4, heat: 26) [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1053397
07:34 csharp the "guts" for metarecord holds are still there.  I have no idea what's required on the front end to get it working in tpac
07:42 csharp funny, I think I may have heard like 2 complaints about it since moving to TPAC in March, so I'm not sure it's a big deal for us...
07:43 paxed or maybe i've misunderstood the concept?
07:44 csharp it's so a patron can place a hold on a title, regardless of format (e.g. regular print, large print, audio, video)
07:45 paxed oh. so it's for the format that's the defining factor there.
07:45 csharp it "joins" all the related titles together for the sake of the hold
07:45 csharp s/titles/bibs/
07:45 paxed ok, i don't think that's such an important one after all.
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07:46 csharp it can be a big deal if cataloging quality is poor - e.g., many copies of Gone with the Wind on separate records
07:46 csharp but that's been improved a lot in our system
07:47 paxed so the "normal" hold is when a patron places a hold on a book, he gets the first available copy (with the same format), or does he have to explicitly put hold on the free one?
07:47 csharp first available copy
07:48 paxed ok. thanks.
07:48 csharp hold is placed on the bib (normally), so any eligible copy (that is, marked holdable, not in a bad status, etc.) attached to that bib is game
07:49 csharp paxed: so is there still a race between EG and Koha for your institution? ;-)
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07:50 * csharp has been watching with interest
07:50 paxed i really don't know.
07:50 csharp just curious
07:51 paxed as far as kivilahtio is concerned, it's koha all the way down.
07:51 csharp I'm really interested in what sorts of features/lack of features/showstoppers libraries find to be decisive when evaluating EG
07:51 csharp since it was developed for PINES, I have a very insider-y view of it all ;-)
07:52 paxed i wasn't involved when they evaluated EG and Koha, but i think it was the hierarchical structure.
07:52 * csharp keeps saying he needs to start getting familiar with Koha but never seems to find the time
07:52 paxed tree structure for the consortia, etc.
07:53 csharp makes sense
07:54 paxed i think kivilahtio got scared that Eg is too complex and we can't possibly fix everything we need before deployment.
07:55 paxed in a recent meeting someone compared Eg to Lego Technic and Koha to Duplo
07:55 csharp yeah - you guys revealed some "growing edges" in i18n, shall we say ;-)
07:55 csharp ha!
07:56 paxed the i18n is basically good now (other than a xulrunner bug on win32), but there's so much other stuff that we need.
07:56 paxed also, Koha would need to be translated - and i've come to hate their translation toolchain.
07:58 paxed but, in few weeks, we're going to a meeting in northern Finland, and hash our all this stuff with the consortias from up north and couple others.
07:58 paxed hash out*
07:59 paxed if thiif this isn't resolved there, i'm seriously considering quitting.
08:00 csharp I'll be interested to hear about how that turns out
08:00 paxed "thiif"? where did that come from ...
08:01 csharp heh
08:01 paxed i guess my fingers can't keep up with my brain, or vice versa.
08:02 * jeff yawns
08:02 jeff morning!
08:02 paxed afternoon.
08:02 csharp morning
08:02 paxed dreary.
08:23 paxed csharp: how do you handle when patron wants to place a hold on a book, and doesn't care which edition he gets? does normal hold, or metarecord hold handle that kind of situation?
08:24 csharp paxed: metarecord holds would do that, yeah - without metarecord holds, you have to place separate holds on each edition
08:24 paxed ok
08:26 paxed do you know off the top of your head what fields the metarecord hold looks for to determine which records are the same?
08:26 csharp not off the top of my head...
08:27 csharp I believe biblio.record_entry.fingerprint is consulted, but I may be wrong
08:29 csharp yeah - metabib.metarecord maps each metarecord to the source bib and uses fingerprint to match, looks like from the DB view
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08:32 csharp s/DB view/DB perspective/ - since "view" has an unambiguous meaning in the db context ;-)
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08:50 paxed apparently in our current ILS it's possible to do a ... "selected records" hold. patron does a search, and can tick records he wants to put a hold on, and all of those are considered filled when any one copy of the selected records is caught.
08:52 csharp sounds like a nice feature
08:52 rfrasur Yeah, it does.
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09:06 rfrasur (all the times...where do they go?  can we buy extras?)
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09:14 dbs Huh. I wonder how much usage that feature actually gets. Sounds like it would be a complex thing for patrons to figure out, but I could see staff using it.
09:24 _bott_ Is there anyone from LYRASIS in the room?
09:24 rfrasur yeah, I can see staff using it more so than patrons...although some power patrons might.
09:25 rfrasur hah...power patrons.
09:28 jeff arbitrary alternate holds was something we had and used often, mostly for things that metarecord holds can do, but not exclusively. it was also used for "i need one of these books about dogs, i don't care which one"
09:28 jeff and it was exclusively used by staff -- there was no patron interface
09:29 rfrasur that's also something we'd probably use but not very often.
09:29 jeff it was also frequently used when we had rentals that were holdable. some people wanted the first available copy, and didn't care if that meant they paid a rental fee -- some patrons preferred not to pay the rental fee, and would wait for a non-rental copy of the title.
09:30 jeff in our prior system, the rental copies and non-rental copies were on distinct bibs to support this.
09:30 rfrasur do you still have rentals?
09:30 jeff we have since eliminated rentals, and our "hot" titles are non-holdable. there are typically still both hot and non-hot copies, and they are no longer artificially on distinct bibs.
09:31 rfrasur gotcha.  makes sense.
09:31 jeff so that use case is gone -- the "don't surprise me with a rental copy" case
09:31 jeff i don't know how often the "give me one of these books about dogs" use case was encountered.
09:37 rfrasur o0(why Excel?  why do you hate me today?)
09:37 jeff _bott_: the only nickname i see present that i associate with Lyrasis ends in _away, so that might be a no.
09:38 jeff rfrasur: because #REF!
09:39 rfrasur hah...#REF are my initials.  Sounds about right.
09:39 * rfrasur IS the wrench in the machine.
09:40 * rfrasur thinks about cursing indignantly against the fates.
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09:41 rfrasur o0(and now the public computers won't turn on...wt(f or h...take your pick))
09:41 * csharp always enjoyed his reference job more when the public PCs weren't working ;-)
09:43 * rfrasur has never been a reference librarian.
09:52 rfrasur My kingdom for a big stock of brand new surge protectors.
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10:08 rfrasur Yay...all the things fixed.  w00t Monday.
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10:24 Dyrcona I'm feeling a bit lazy, and Holds.pm is a mess anyway, so I'll ask.
10:25 Dyrcona Are closed dates meant to affect hold fulfillment, i.e. if the pickup_library is closed on the date the hold targeter runs will its holds be skipped?
10:27 Dyrcona As far as I am able to tell, the answer is "No."
10:28 csharp I thought so
10:28 csharp I mean to say, I *think* it *does* make the targeter skip
10:32 bshum To my recollection
10:32 bshum If a library is marked closed, no holds will target for that pickup lib
10:32 bshum During that day
10:33 Dyrcona Yes. I was looking in the wrong place. I'm deciphering the runes in O::A::Publisher::Storage::action
10:35 bshum Someone was actually complaining about holds not targeting closed libs the other day.
10:35 bshum Because they were open while others were not.
10:35 Dyrcona There is also a setting that controls this, circ.holds.target_when_closed, just for the sake of completeness.
10:35 Dyrcona We have a member closing for two weeks.
10:36 csharp yeah - we set that setting to true and they don't get targeted
10:36 Dyrcona Oh, and I inverted two of the module names above, it should be: OpenILS::Application::Storage::Publisher::action
10:36 csharp I mean false, I guess
10:37 Dyrcona csharp: or just don't set it.
10:40 Dyrcona Naturally, we have that setting turned on consortium-wide.
10:40 Dyrcona Back to the code to see if it obeys the hierarchy.
10:42 dbwells dbs++ # reviewing branches on the weekend :)
10:43 Dyrcona Errm.... Looking at the code again, that setting doesn't do what *we* thought it did.
10:44 Dyrcona It checks based on the copy's circ lib, not the pickup lib. I haven't yet seen anywhere in action.pm that it applies to the pickup lib.
10:44 * Dyrcona looks some more.
10:44 dbs dbwells: I can't resist the lure of cleaner HTML + CSS
10:45 rfrasur dbs++
10:46 dbs dbwells++ # for actually doing the cleaning!
10:46 rfrasur dbwells++
10:46 jeff Dyrcona: is your focus on items being picked from the shelves at the library that is closed, or items transiting there from other libraries during the closed time?
10:46 jeff Dyrcona: it sounds like the latter.
10:46 rfrasur All_the_Dans++
10:47 jeff Dyrcona: short of suspending the holds that have the closed library set as their pickup_lib (which has a number of issues), i don't think there is current code that will do what you want.
10:47 jeff Dyrcona: but if I'm wrong, let me know! :-)
10:49 Dyrcona jeff: You are correct, sir!
10:50 jeff short of adding new code, most of the tricks you can try will look a bit odd to patrons.
10:50 jeff but suspending the holds is likely going to involve the least amount of consternation.
10:50 jeff stash a list of the holds that you suspended (that were not already suspended), and un-suspend them a day or two before open.
10:51 jeff some patrons will unsuspend their own holds, and new holds will not be suspended...
10:51 jeff or -- perhaps better, but slightly more under the hood -- adjust the proximity / boundary for the holds that are for pickup at that lib.
10:52 jeff so that they will not pull from copies at any other libraries.
10:52 jeff then set it back before they open.
10:52 jeff (using the same "stash a list of the ids you changed" method, since someone could edit their pickup lib)
10:54 jeff you could change defaults for that lib during the close time
10:54 Dyrcona Yeah, I thought of the latter, basically turning them off temporarily.
10:55 Dyrcona I don't like any of the "solutions" other than make hold targeter skip pickup libs when closed.
10:55 Dyrcona For it to be effective though, it would probably need some "slop."
10:57 Dyrcona Hm...
10:57 * Dyrcona runs off to calculate the "average" time things spend in transit, if he can.
10:57 * jeff nods
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10:58 jeff unless you have libraries that are closed for several days in a row on a frequent basis, it might be better to have a normally unset OUS that says "don't capture holds for this pickup library"
10:59 csharp I thought that's what "skip for hold targeting" did?
10:59 csharp oh wait - the pickup lib
10:59 csharp nevermind
11:00 jeff csharp: that will take care of "don't ask staff to pull items from $CLOSED_LIB's shelves, staff won't be there", but the intent here is to prevent items from other libraries from being sent to fulfill holds at $CLOSED_LIB, since the patrons will not be able to get them, and the items will sit unused.
11:02 csharp that's a great point
11:03 Dyrcona jeff: That's a thought.
11:03 Dyrcona I got a bit more precision that I expected:  2 days 20:57:13.369663
11:04 Dyrcona s/that/than/
11:04 jeff nice. is that excluding outliers?
11:04 Dyrcona Nope. That just the average all dest_recv_time - source_send_time where both are not null.
11:04 Dyrcona Whoa. Can't seem to type today.
11:05 jeff i don't think we see that kind of performance with our transits, though that could be due to the statewide nature of the delivery system, and that county transits are (afaik) not exempt from the regional sorting hubs.
11:08 Dyrcona Based on my anecdotal experience, we have pretty good delivery, and I guess the query backs that up.
11:09 Dyrcona Oh. This would wreak havoc with single-day closings.....
11:10 jeff Dyrcona: did you exclude self-transits?
11:10 Dyrcona jeff: No, I didn't. Guess I should. We have a few of those, I'm sure.
11:11 Dyrcona Still, not bad: 2 days 21:25:34.577243
11:11 jeff nice.
11:11 csharp "5 days 13:32:58.353526" - since 1/1/13
11:12 csharp that's mostly because of internal courier services
11:12 csharp we do statewide hq to hq courier
11:12 csharp and that's probably more like 2 days
11:13 jeff interesting. only 22% of our transits in the last 30 days were self-transits. i would have thought that number was higher.
11:14 jeff only one branch uses capture local holds as transits, but it is where a large percentage of circ is done.
11:14 Dyrcona One of our libraries uses that setting for their automated materials handler.
11:17 jeff same. inside rfid bookdrop and two returns (one staff, one drive-through) attached to a sorter.
11:18 Dyrcona I wonder if it is really worth coding something up.
11:18 Dyrcona I suppose the check should be made optional.
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11:19 Dyrcona It should calculate the average "fulfillment time" and only apply on closings of that duration or greater.
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11:19 jeff you might be bordering on overthinking. :-)
11:20 Dyrcona It should not target holds average fulfillment time before the close start and start targeting again average fulfillment time before close end.
11:20 jeff at least, your statements are causing me to overthink.
11:20 Dyrcona It seems pretty simple to me, as simple as anything can be in an ILS. :)
11:22 Dyrcona Heh. I should write this up as an enhancement and look for sponsors. :p
11:25 jboyer-isl Was there a discussion recently about possibly adding a flag or two to copy statues so some of the lists of "magic" statues can be replaced by a SELECT id FROM etc... instead of status IN (0,3,7,etc.)?
11:25 jeff jboyer-isl: there was some discussion about where certain statuses where hardcoded.
11:26 jboyer-isl jeff: Did anything come of it?
11:26 jeff jboyer-isl: what did you have in mind?
11:27 jboyer-isl We're looking to add a Display status so you'd have some idea where an item is if it's not on the shelf. But it's id won't be in any of the lists, so Display items would require an override.
11:27 jeff jboyer-isl: ah. we use a number of display shelving location for that -- then the catalog tells patrons exactly where the item they're looking for is. :-)
11:27 Dyrcona jboyer-isl: Display probably works better as a copy location.
11:28 jboyer-isl I found the right list to add it to, but just tacking on a "circulate?" flag or something similar (possibly 2-3 flags? "Good" vs. "Bad"?) to that table would take care of several lists.
11:28 Dyrcona jboyer-isl: I'd suggest that using a copy status is "doing it wrong."
11:28 jeff what we'd be interested in there is a way to return the item to its original location -- similar to copy transparencies original intent, as i understand it.
11:28 jboyer-isl Drycona: The intent is that when it's checked in, it just goes back to "normal." Which does happen with statues.
11:29 Dyrcona jboyer-isl: Um, why? So, its only on Display for a single circ?
11:29 rfrasur o0(I've never known a statue to be normal)
11:29 jeff in our case, we have an alert message on the copy location so that the items go back to the display when returned
11:29 jboyer-isl We're looking for something that anyone can use, vs. each location creating their own Display XYZ locations.
11:29 Dyrcona A consortium-wide Display location, perhaps?
11:30 jboyer-isl Dyrcona: If it's a public display, it's possible that the item was replaced while it was out. Also, when the display is changed, you just check all of the items in and chuck them in the bin.
11:30 jeff or even a small number of cons-wide display locations... Adult Display, Children's Display, Teen Display
11:30 Dyrcona Lazy...lazy...lazy...
11:30 * Dyrcona shakes his head.
11:30 jboyer-isl Laziness is a benefit for coders (re-use) why not catalogers? ;D
11:31 Dyrcona This is what copy locations are meant for. IMHO, it is an abuse of copy status to do it that way.
11:32 Dyrcona Re-use is overhyped and overrated. Surprisingly little happens in actual practice.
11:32 rfrasur Dyrcona: for the display status?
11:32 Dyrcona rfrasur: Display should be a location, not a status.
11:32 * rfrasur thinks a display should be a copy location...but I'm not going to fight with people over it.
11:32 jboyer-isl I may have to go back to our Cat comm. and see if they are dead-set on the status or if a global location will work.
11:32 rfrasur since....it's a location.
11:33 Dyrcona jboyer-isl: It's pretty easy to scan a bunch of barcodes into item status and then bulk change the copy location.
11:33 jboyer-isl Sure, that's how we used to do it at my last job.
11:34 Dyrcona It seems to me that using a status instead of a location is fighting the system.
11:35 jboyer-isl Or possibly bringing some old-system baggage along to the new.
11:35 Dyrcona Even so, it's fighting Evergreen and staff should alter work flow when necessary.
11:35 Dyrcona Old system baggage is more trouble than its worth.
11:36 Dyrcona After all, if you wanted that baggage, you could have stayed on the old system, no? ;)
11:36 mmorgan We recently created a Display status just for the reason jboyer-isl described. Library has a bunch of books, usually new, that they put out on tables
11:37 mmorgan They want to be able to locate them easily when they show up on the pull list
11:37 * Dyrcona puts hands over his ears and starts singing, "La la la la!" ;)
11:37 Dyrcona cf. What I said above.
11:37 mmorgan They get checked out, display status clears, everyone's happy.
11:38 Dyrcona Except for me. :p
11:38 mmorgan Well, almost everyone, apparently :)
11:38 rfrasur and me
11:38 Dyrcona But, you don't have to listen to me.
11:38 rfrasur We just won't use it.
11:38 rfrasur We already have a shelving location for new materials...because they're there for a time duration rather than a number of circs (one).
11:39 rfrasur I guess it just depends on how you want the stuff to behave.
11:39 mmorgan Certainly it is a choice, libraries that don't want to don't have to use it, but it works well for some.
11:39 dbwells jboyer-isl: I think jeff is right in noting that what you really want is some sort of temporary location support, I think.  It's a concept missing from Evergreen, but it could solve these in-between cases, where essentially an attribute can be viewed as both a status and a location.
11:40 dbwells We have more-or-less an identical problem, but the status is "New Books"
11:40 jboyer-isl dbwells, jeff: Actually, that would also work (possibly better, as you could use the "generic" location, or your own)
11:40 jeff being able to select a number of items in item status and "return to normal shelving location" or a checkin modifier for "return to normal shelving location" could help part of what jboyer-isl is looking for
11:42 jeff mmorgan: in your case, as i understand things, the items in Display status that are sitting on those tables would not show up in a patron catalog search where the patron selected "limit to available" -- is that your experience?
11:43 kmlussier Copy locations have that nice check-in alert feature now that helps with these types of temporary locations so that, at a minimum, staff are alerted that they might want to change the location. But it would sure be nice to automate it.
11:44 kmlussier jeff: They do not show as available. We were just discussing that issues locally a couple of weeks ago.
11:44 mmorgan jeff: nobody has brought that to my attention, but I'll see if I can confirm. Sounds like that should be the case.
11:45 jeff kmlussier: and now we're full circle -- that conversation in here the other day is what jboyer-isl was asking about, I think. :-)
11:45 jeff at least, it's what I thought of when he asked.
11:46 kmlussier We had a wishlist item here for some easy way to identify which statuses should be used when limiting to available. I guess we have a handful of statuses that are used for items that are available.
11:46 jeff interesting.
11:47 jeff kmlussier: what other statuses do you have that you'd like to treat as "available"? if you mentioned it previously, I don't remember.
11:47 jboyer-isl There used to be several that we also wanted to be able to check in without an override; I think Temporarily Unavailable was one.
11:48 jeff What was that used for, and how "temporary" was that status? :-)
11:49 jboyer-isl Things that would sit in Tech Services while they waited for cleaning, binding, repair, etc.
11:49 kmlussier I don't think I mentioned it. It was primarily a local discussion that happened here. http://masslnc.cwmars.org/node/2876. Now that I look at it, the original idea was for something slightly different.  "Display" and "Storage" are the two statuses I see that are being used.
11:50 jboyer-isl It was used for a little bit, but staff didn't want to have to override them all the time (we wanted them to think an override was unusual, not business as usual).
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11:53 mmorgan jeff: limiting to available does exclude the On Display status items. I think items in this status don't stay in it long, getting scooped up by browsers, or by staff pulling for holds.
11:55 dbs It's a good way to force patrons to visit in-person :)
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12:25 csharp apple--
12:26 csharp @karma apple
12:26 pinesol_green csharp: Karma for "apple" has been increased 0 times and decreased 5 times for a total karma of -5.
12:26 * csharp is building a mac staff client
12:26 csharp putting the files in place is pretty simple, but making the .dmg is a humongous PITA
12:27 csharp it would probably be easier if I used macs, well, EVER
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12:37 rfrasur Am I understanding correctly that the clustered index refers to the column that a table sorts by?
12:38 bshum csharp: Yeah :)
12:38 bshum csharp: Making the DMG was the FUN part!
12:38 bshum (for me)
12:39 csharp yeesh
12:39 csharp now I have to upgrade the OS to be able to install xcode :-/
12:39 jeff why are you installing xcode?
12:39 bshum That's usually how folks hide the background imagers
12:40 csharp I'm following a tutorial... what bshum said
12:40 bshum Cause Mac is stupid and puts in xcode the attribute modifier tool
12:40 bshum There's a workaround to that
12:40 bshum I don't remember off the top of my head
12:41 bshum That might be faster to google than to install xcode
12:46 bshum csharp: http://lifehacker.com/hide-any-file-or-folde​r-on-your-mac-with-a-one-simple-t-521434930
12:46 bshum For example
12:46 bshum Probably not the best example... per say
12:47 csharp I'll try it - thanks
12:48 * bshum installed xcode on his macbooks for other reasons back in the day
12:48 bshum It just takes so long :(
12:51 csharp bshum++ # that worked
12:53 bshum Yay!
12:53 * bshum goes off to hunt for some lunch
12:53 frank_____ goof morning, could someone help me, I have a problem with the mfhd, these doesn´t show in the issues held label, it appears, but is empty
12:53 * csharp envisons bshum in camo with a crossbow in the woods
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13:13 eeevil rfrasur: sort of ... not really.  you don't cluster an index, you cluster the heap based on an index
13:17 rfrasur eeevil: okay...then what this dude is saying doesn't jive...but I guess once I get a db app of some sort or another and actually starting doing things it might make more sense.
13:17 rfrasur ty
13:18 eeevil rfrasur: which dude is this?
13:18 jeff and if you're asking in a postgresql sense, or if an example would help, i'd suggest the first two paragraphs under "Description", here: http://www.postgresql.org/doc​s/9.2/static/sql-cluster.html
13:19 rfrasur Simon Allardice - one of the Lynda instructors.
13:19 jeff and stealing the definition of "index" from http://www.postgresql.org/docs​/9.2/interactive/indexes.html "Indexes are a common way to enhance database performance. An index allows the database server to find and retrieve specific rows much faster than it could do without an index. But indexes also add overhead to the database system as a whole, so they should be used sensibly."
13:19 jeff rfrasur: in what context was the instructor using the term?
13:20 rfrasur He was kinda referring to a column as an index, it seemed.
13:20 eeevil rfrasur: ah, well, is it a postgres-specific course? if not, there are other meanings for "clustered index" in other databases
13:20 rfrasur or a column BEING indexed...one or the other.
13:20 rfrasur eeevil: no..it's general.  I've not gotten into postgres yet
13:21 rfrasur "Foundations of Programming: Databases"
13:21 * rfrasur is at the very beginning...well, the end of the very beginning now.
13:21 eeevil ok ... yeah, don't believe any description of specific implementations (or specific optimization techniques) from a general DB course
13:21 rfrasur k, that sounds very reasonable.
13:22 rfrasur Not sure if it's GOOD but reasonable.
13:22 eeevil :)
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13:22 rfrasur though I'm feeling some deja vu right now...and wondering if I haven't seen this before.
13:28 jeff general database course says: "some database systems use the term 'cluster' in the vicinity of the term "index". they often mean different things." ;-)
13:29 jcamins rfrasur: a bit of Googling tells me that what he means by "clustered index" might be "index used to determine the order that rows are stored to disk."
13:29 jcamins My Googling also tells me that might *not* be what he means.
13:29 rfrasur yeah, I think I'll not get particularly tied to most terms until I eventually get into postgres
13:30 rfrasur jcamins: I'm getting the impression that he's trying to get everything and the kitchen sink into 4 hours.
13:30 jcamins No, no, there's no need to thank me for the brilliant light I shed on the matter. :)
13:31 jcamins rfrasur: the introduction to databases course is four hours long?
13:31 rfrasur hah! I'm more thankful to just not get booted out of here.  No, I read it wrong.  It's 3 hours 11 minutes...or in my case...5 weeks long
13:32 jcamins 3:11 minutes for an entire databases course?
13:33 rfrasur yep
13:33 rfrasur so....a lot is glossed over
13:33 jcamins Yeah... I guess so.
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14:50 * bshum waves at mjingle
14:50 mjingle *waves at bshum*
14:50 mjingle Long time no see!
14:50 mjingle (My fault, of course)
14:50 bshum Indeed!  How are things up in Canada?
14:53 mjingle Weather-wise: surprisingly dry for Vancouver. Work-wise: Great!
14:56 bshum Sounds good
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14:59 csharp mjingle: a hearty "Hey" from your Georgia friends
14:59 rfrasur mjingle! How's it?
14:59 mjingle csharp: And a welcome one at that! Thanks!
15:00 mjingle rfrasur: It goes, it goes!
15:00 rfrasur :D
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15:32 * rfrasur is accomplishing like a professional accomplisher today.
15:32 rfrasur Just saying
15:32 mjingle rfrasur++
15:32 mjingle Not bad for a Monday
15:32 rfrasur Nope, not bad atll.
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15:45 pinesol_green [evergreen|Mike Rylander] Make sure that # can be used in auth browse - <http://git.evergreen-ils.org/?p=​Evergreen.git;a=commit;h=6ce3e4b>
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15:51 jeff do other libraries use the term "renew" in the context of "renewing a patron account" that has expired?
15:52 jeff i.e., if you saw a button next to the expire date on a patron account, would it make sense for that button to say "Renew"? would you expect that button to set the value in the expire date field to a date that is today + profile interval?
15:53 csharp jeff: I would want it to say "Renew Account" or "Renew Card" or something
15:53 rfrasur jeff: some of my staff do, but I prefer reactivate or update.
15:53 jeff "Renew Patron"?
15:53 jeff hrm. "Update" next to the expire date might make sense.
15:54 * bshum likes "Renew Account" too.
15:54 jeff there are three problems in programming... naming things, and off by one errors.
15:54 rfrasur I just like unique vocabulary for essential tasks so that there's less chance for confusion.
15:55 jeff heh
15:55 rfrasur If we were to go with "renew account," I already know people would think it was dealing with materials rather than account info.
15:55 csharp rfrasur: you're almost certainly correct
15:56 gsams jeff:Most of our patrons have to update their information every three years so we say "Update Account"
15:56 jeff okay, I'm going with "Update Expire Date Field -- You Will Still Need to Click Save"
15:56 jeff (kidding)
15:56 rfrasur lol, I like that "You will still need to click save" part :D
15:56 csharp "Renew the PATRON - No, not ITEMS, the PATRON"
15:57 rfrasur "What the heck are you touching a computer for?  There's a typewriter in the back."
15:57 csharp "Have you tried turning off and back on again?"
15:57 gsams rfrasur++
15:57 jeff the click save part is due to a disconnect between how some buttons in the patron editor take immediate effect, and others require a Save. :-)
15:57 gsams csharp++
15:58 eeevil jeff: oh?
15:59 jeff eeevil: the contact invalidation buttons take immediate effect. i'm not sure if there are others. i'm checking right now to see if they cause an xact collision, since I wondered about that earlier.
15:59 rfrasur Oh, I thought you had to save everything.
15:59 * rfrasur does anyway.
15:59 eeevil rfrasur: that's always safe, IIUC
16:00 rfrasur yep....actually I save multiple times because I tend to forget/get distracted pretty easy.
16:00 jeff yeah. i'm not sure if the bug is to make the Invalidate buttons queue their action until you hit Save, or to just fix it so that clicking them doesn't prompt you to save changes.
16:00 rfrasur (it's good that I'm not at the circ desk often)
16:01 eeevil jeff: probably the former, IMO
16:02 jeff and no, the contact Invalidate buttons (rather, the method behind them) do not update last_xact on the patron record, so there's no collision. again, i'm not sure how i feel about that. :-)
16:04 jeff adding some client-side logic for "queue invalidation of email" combined with "and cancel that if you ALSO update the email address"... though actually, calling the invalidate method then calling update user would probably be cleaner.
16:04 jeff though it would result in some immediately archived standing penalties if you clicked "Invalidate" and then entered the same value that was there before.
16:05 jeff that could be the one corner case that is handled client-side.
16:05 * jeff babbles
16:06 jeff i can't think of a current reason why it's bad that OpenILS::Application::Actor::BadContact doesn't bump last_xact on a user... in the current interface, it's good for the UI that it doesn't.
16:07 bshum gmcharlt++
16:07 bshum (for new OpenSRF)
16:24 jeff gmcharlt++
16:29 csharp gmcharlt++
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20:07 hbrennan Anyone here? (Probably not since it's late afternoon in Alaska...) grumble
20:07 jeff hbrennan: what's up?
20:08 hbrennan We've lost the ability for patrons to place a hold on a specific part (like disc 1 of a DVD series)
20:08 hbrennan only on the OPAC end, staff side is fine
20:08 jeff some monitor on and off and will respond if you ask a question and hang around. :-)
20:08 hbrennan We've been having power glitches that are knocking out settings, weird as that soiunds
20:09 jeff and.. i'm being pulled away. parts are not something i have a lot of experience, but others here do.
20:09 hbrennan Yeah, I can always count on bshum or gmcharlt to be here day or night
20:09 hbrennan I've been searching around but can't find clues as to where the setting is
20:09 hbrennan Thanks jeff!
20:16 hbrennan I'll be monitoring IRC, while bouncing around doing other things too, so if anyone knows the name of this setting I will be forever grateful
20:23 gmcharlt hbrennan: should be more better now -- take a look at /openils/var/templates_homer/op​ac/parts/record/copy_table.tt2
20:23 gmcharlt just looks like a copy recent template updates were stomping on each other
20:23 hbrennan Ahhh! Did you just change it?
20:23 gmcharlt yep
20:23 hbrennan You should have just seen my face over here
20:23 hbrennan I thought the situation got STRANGER
20:23 * gmcharlt checks calendar
20:23 gmcharlt oops, it's not Halloween yet
20:24 hbrennan phew
20:24 hbrennan seriously, that scared me :)
20:24 hbrennan Well, thank you
20:24 hbrennan Now for part two
20:24 hbrennan Why the heck is this happening?
20:25 gmcharlt in this case, it was a recent change to the same template that happened to undo the bit that enabled volume-level holds
20:25 hbrennan During the first power outage blip we lost the ability to receive text message hold notifications
20:25 hbrennan No one here is changing settings
20:25 hbrennan Can you see the time stamp of that change?
20:26 gmcharlt 10/23
20:26 hbrennan around 5:15 pm AK time I'm guessing
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